The Empire Strikes Out - Inside the Battle of Hoth

[Ideologue]

I wouldn't put it past them to do a re-boot, or go to The Old Republic for fresh stories. I've always looked at The Old Republic (4000 years before the movies) setting (the comics and later the games) as an alternative version of the "classic" Star Wars story and universe. You have the same places and concepts, but are free to do completely different things with them. Of course, several comics, novels, and games in this is starting to get crowded, too. But nothing to keep people from going further back, or slightly forward.

My thing is that I've never really felt the Star Wars universe was as inherently interesting as a lot of people clearly do.  I don't think it ever matched Star Trek, for example, in terms of reusability and story modularity.  The overweening presence of the Force and the unninterrupted (and frankly hard to believe) thousands-year span of one-galaxy government and culture, at basically one technological level the entire time, homogenizes the Star Wars universe, regardless of era.  And you can't really add anything or change anything without it seeming bizarre and alien to the franchise (I think they tried some extragalactic invaders once, for example, which doesn't sound particularly interesting).  Which is fine--Flash Gordon stories don't have infinite possibilities, there's no reason Star Wars stories should.  Not all concepts should, in fact most concepts do not, lend themselves to infinite repackaging.

That's why I don't care that much about Star Wars outside of the core Skywalker parable (moral: "great, kid, [but] don't get cocky").  Like, wow, there were Sith and smugglers ten thousand years ago?  TELL ME MORE?

P.S. I'll still be disappointed if Thrawn doesn't show up somewhere in the new, post-Jedi movies.  That guy was probably the only concept from beyond the films that I ever felt had any legs whatsoever.

You really need to get out more often.

Because I criticized one of the most popular entertainment franchises of our, or any, era? 

[Syt]

I'd argue that the base building blocks are so few that correspondingly few structures can be built from them.

Unlike Star Trek, that by the time of Voyager was bogged down in Prime Directive Fundamentalism and technobabble hell.

[The Larch]

I wouldn't put it past them to do a re-boot, or go to The Old Republic for fresh stories. I've always looked at The Old Republic (4000 years before the movies) setting (the comics and later the games) as an alternative version of the "classic" Star Wars story and universe. You have the same places and concepts, but are free to do completely different things with them. Of course, several comics, novels, and games in this is starting to get crowded, too. But nothing to keep people from going further back, or slightly forward.

My thing is that I've never really felt the Star Wars universe was as inherently interesting as a lot of people clearly do.  I don't think it ever matched Star Trek, for example, in terms of reusability and story modularity.  The overweening presence of the Force and the unninterrupted (and frankly hard to believe) thousands-year span of one-galaxy government and culture, at basically one technological level the entire time, homogenizes the Star Wars universe, regardless of era.  And you can't really add anything or change anything without it seeming bizarre and alien to the franchise (I think they tried some extragalactic invaders once, for example, which doesn't sound particularly interesting).  Which is fine--Flash Gordon stories don't have infinite possibilities, there's no reason Star Wars stories should.  Not all concepts should, in fact most concepts do not, lend themselves to infinite repackaging.

That's why I don't care that much about Star Wars outside of the core Skywalker parable (moral: "great, kid, [but] don't get cocky").  Like, wow, there were Sith and smugglers ten thousand years ago?  TELL ME MORE?

P.S. I'll still be disappointed if Thrawn doesn't show up somewhere in the new, post-Jedi movies.  That guy was probably the only concept from beyond the films that I ever felt had any legs whatsoever.

You really need to get out more often.

Because I criticized one of the most popular entertainment franchises of our, or any, era? 

No, because you devoted way too much thought and time in order to make a pedantic and verbose critique of it.

[Admiral Yi]

No, because you devoted way too much thought and time in order to make a pedantic and verbose critique of it.

An intellectual is a person who has discovered something more interesting than sex.

[Ideologue]

I'd argue that the base building blocks are so few that correspondingly few structures can be built from them.

Unlike Star Trek, that by the time of Voyager was bogged down in Prime Directive Fundamentalism and technobabble hell.

Now, now, Voyager could have been really good.  The premise was solid.  Unfortunately it was rare enough that anyone working on the show had any ideas at all, let alone coherent ones about how to advance that premise to interesting conclusions.  It's unfortunate that Moore wasn't in a position of authority with Voyager along with DS9--while Galactica veered into shittiness, in many ways it was practically the same show (starship that is a community to itself must find Earth) but it did so much more with it--invention of a strong recurrent antagonist, realistic and interesting tensions between different factions within the protagonists, and so forth.

Actually, how much fun would it have been if, like Tom Zarek, Chakotay had led a mutiny against Janeway and Harry Kim got blown out an airlock for treason?  HIGH HILARITY.

OK, NOW El Larcho can accuse me of not getting enough sunlight.

[Neil]

The Fleet itself failed the Empire in the subsequent engagement at Endor.  Admiral Piett did, in fact, fail Vader again.

The weird thing is that we're not really sure how, why or even if the fleet failed at Endor.  The fleet's job was to hold the Rebels so that the Death Star could merrily annihilate them.  Once the fighters fly into the Death Star and the fleet battle commences, we really don't have much of an update as to the progress of the naval engagement, except that at some point Vader's flagship is destroyed due to an absolutely idiotic design decision.  If you've built your space battleship so that it crashes into something and explodes if the main bridge is destroyed, you've committed an act of unspeakable stupidity.  You should maybe have it not crash in that case.

Still, for all we know the fleets might still be engaged at the end of ROTJ, although the attitude of the rebels makes it seem unlikely.  The Imperial fleet seemed much larger and more powerful than the rebel one, so I would hope that whoever took command after Admiral Piett died was hanged for cowardice.  There's no good reason to pull your superior fleet back, even though you've just lost a Death Star and your flagship.

[CountDeMoney]

I blame the little Chinese dude with alcoholic epiphora flying with Lando.

[Drakken]

I see I am the only one to have noticed this :

Caitlin Fitz Gerald is the Boston-based writer and artist behind the Children's Illustrated Clausewitz.

Now that's a book for children I can get behind.  I'd buy that.

[Syt]

Now, now, Voyager could have been really good.  The premise was solid. 

Yes it was. And "Year in Hell" or "Equinox" showed what could have been. Instead we got little continuity, lots of truly idiotic writing, and Neelix.

[CountDeMoney]

I see I am the only one to have noticed this :

Not really;  read through it last night.  Pretty decent.

[Drakken]

Still, for all we know the fleets might still be engaged at the end of ROTJ, although the attitude of the rebels makes it seem unlikely.  The Imperial fleet seemed much larger and more powerful than the rebel one, so I would hope that whoever took command after Admiral Piett died was hanged for cowardice.  There's no good reason to pull your superior fleet back, even though you've just lost a Death Star and your flagship.

Except that the Emperor and Vader were both dead, a Death Star blew up, and several ISDs were lost or heavily damaged. Most of the sway Palplatine held over the Empire and the Imperial Moffs was thoroughly Force Manipulation from the Dark Side, as shown in the prequels. What happens to the puppet when the puppeteer gets thrown in a Death Star core?

So in essence, people on the Imperial Fleet suddenly woke up in a faze and said "Where the fuck am I? Why I'm here fighting furries? Screw that, retreat."

[Neil]

I'd argue that the base building blocks are so few that correspondingly few structures can be built from them.

Unlike Star Trek, that by the time of Voyager was bogged down in Prime Directive Fundamentalism and technobabble hell.

Now, now, Voyager could have been really good.  The premise was solid.  Unfortunately it was rare enough that anyone working on the show had any ideas at all, let alone coherent ones about how to advance that premise to interesting conclusions.  It's unfortunate that Moore wasn't in a position of authority with Voyager along with DS9--while Galactica veered into shittiness, in many ways it was practically the same show (starship that is a community to itself must find Earth) but it did so much more with it--invention of a strong recurrent antagonist, realistic and interesting tensions between different factions within the protagonists, and so forth.

Actually, how much fun would it have been if, like Tom Zarek, Chakotay had led a mutiny against Janeway and Harry Kim got blown out an airlock for treason?  HIGH HILARITY.

OK, NOW El Larcho can accuse me of not getting enough sunlight.

See, but Voyager was supposed to counteract the militarism and general awesomeness of DS9 and return closer to Roddenberry's original hippie-flippie vision.  It also suffered from outdated, reset-button plot and characterization.  Sure, it's alright to be episodic, but when nobody really grows or changes over the entire series run except for maybe the Doctor), that shit don't fly anymore.

[Syt]

One of the series that got continuity very right was Farscape. I know, many were turned off by the muppet aliens. Still, the characters accrue a big amount of emotional baggage over the show's run, and it shows, with characters noticeably changing over time (esp. the main character who goes from wide eyed space tourist to cynical, traumatized fighter). And more importantly, it works.

[Neil]

Still, for all we know the fleets might still be engaged at the end of ROTJ, although the attitude of the rebels makes it seem unlikely.  The Imperial fleet seemed much larger and more powerful than the rebel one, so I would hope that whoever took command after Admiral Piett died was hanged for cowardice.  There's no good reason to pull your superior fleet back, even though you've just lost a Death Star and your flagship.

Except that the Emperor and Vader were both dead, a Death Star blew up, and several ISDs were lost or heavily damaged. Most of the sway Palplatine held over the Empire and the Imperial Moffs was thoroughly Force Manipulation from the Dark Side, as shown in the prequels. What happens to the puppet when the puppeteer gets thrown in a Death Star core?

So in essence, people on the Imperial Fleet suddenly woke up in a faze and said "Where the fuck am I? Why I'm here fighting furries? Screw that, retreat."

There were at least two dozen Star Destroyers at Endor.  The loss of a few isn't really going to be decisive.

I've heard that 'force manipulation' theory before, but I've never seen much in the way of evidence to support it.  It just seems so ridiculous on the face of it, that the only way that Palpatine could get fighting men equipped with the most awesome weapons around to fight was to trick them with the Force.  Does not compute.

[Drakken]

There were at least two dozen Star Destroyers at Endor.  The loss of a few isn't really going to be decisive.

I've heard that 'force manipulation' theory before, but I've never seen much in the way of evidence to support it.  It just seems so ridiculous on the face of it, that the only way that Palpatine could get fighting men equipped with the most awesome weapons around to fight was to trick them with the Force.  Does not compute.

There are quite a few examples in ROTS of people who follow Palpatine like drones because they are demonstratively under his magic sway. For example his guests in the Opera house with Anakin, the alien chancellor who calls him master, the Senators during his discourse, and so on.

If I were an Imperial officer, deploying massive, planet-destroying resources to pursuit a 18 year old blond Ken doll- like peasant from Tatooine would certainly appear whimsical. Yet they do stupid military decisions like this without a single protest.

While technology is quite fundamental to the Empire, such a huge Empire oddly doesn't have any factionalism among its military human elements; on the contrary they seems totally subjugated to Palpatine's every whimsical order. Either it is an effect of simple, sheer Stalinian terror among its military (which we have no evidence of, except directly when Vader is involved. As an aside in the original trilogy novelization his casual 'dismissal' of officers for even trivial military mistakes in one big stain on his rap sheet, and a reason of dissatisfaction of officers serving under him) or Dark Side Magic (as in the canon totally, indiscutably exists).