Gay marriage in UK set for vote

[OttoVonBismarck]

What I'll note about gay marriage, is I see very little undercurrent, outside of the small gay community, of people who are massively invested in getting it passed.

The story of State-level gay marriage in the United States is basically the story of the hardcore religious right who oppose it losing prominence and a large bloc of people whose opinion is "meh, I don't care, why not?" coming to prominence. I think that's why to an American, the idea that it's super important to us is a little strange. Outside of the serious antis, most people aren't that concerned about the issue (which is also why its long term prospects are what they are.)

[Valmy]

The story of State-level gay marriage in the United States is basically the story of the hardcore religious right who oppose it losing prominence and a large bloc of people whose opinion is "meh, I don't care, why not?" coming to prominence. I think that's why to an American, the idea that it's super important to us is a little strange. Outside of the serious antis, most people aren't that concerned about the issue (which is also why its long term prospects are what they are.)

Yeah but that is true for basically any political issue that does impact any given individual in a direct way.  Most people in the US are not political anyway or the extent of their political interest and participation is showing up to vote....so saying most people do not care about any given political issue is obviously and self-evidently true.  I do not think that says anything about gay marriage, those who actually are interested in politics seem to be fairly obsessed with it.

What I'll note about gay marriage, is I see very little undercurrent, outside of the small gay community, of people who are massively invested in getting it passed.

I see many people pretty invested in getting those passed and there were plenty of people scrambling to get the Constitutional amendments banning them passed.  Certainly more than most other political issues.  If there is so little undercurrent than why is such a big hairy deal made about all these amendments and laws every damn election?  The Texas amendment drew a pretty big turnout and much passion among the political types.  People do not care to the extent it is a political issue and people generally do not care about those.  So I think everybody is right here, it is both a national obsession AND nobody cares much...which is true for a whole slew of political footballs such as this.

[crazy canuck]

If Brits/Canadians/Scandinavians/etc didn't care at all about the issue, they wouldn't have changed their laws. They cared enough to do so and they have clear majorities in favor of gay marriage so it has ceased being an issue for their press to talk about(though apparently whether Americans follow suit is an issue of considerable interest).

Its just that many of us looking from outside in are continually amazed at how such an advanced society can be so backward in so many ways.

I always laugh at those sort of comments coming from people who live under monarchies.

I always laugh at those who thought they could do without one.

[MadImmortalMan]

When does this happen? Tomorrow?

[Sheilbh]

The 7 hour or so debate's just wrapped up, and about 70 MPs spoke including the occasional lunatic

MPs are voting now.

[Admiral Yi]

What does parliamentary debate look like?

Members readinig prepared speeches, like the US House?

Members interrupting each other and flapping papers, like question time?

[Sheilbh]

Yep.

Ayes - 400
Nays - 175

Even though it was a free vote for the Tories the PM supported it, so it'll be interesting to see how many Tory MPs opposed it. I've been really surprised at the Tory opposition. I hadn't expected it to be quite so strong and deep as it has been.

[Sheilbh]

Members interrupting each other and flapping papers, like question time?

This, though their speeches are still prepared, but they try and keep it just to notes. If they're just reading a speech then they often get heckled. The Speaker tries to keep the interruptions to a minimum and also regulates the length of time MPs get to talk. MPs can choose to take interventions too - so during their speech another MP can stand up and they'll take their question, answer it and carry on.

Members readinig prepared speeches, like the US House?

No. Bagehot described the US Congress as all prologue and no play.

[Sheilbh]

Apparently about 140 Tory MPs voted against, and 130 for. So, even though it's a free vote, Cameron kind of lost his party.

Edit: Labour think about 20 of their MPs voted against.

[Martinus]

Same thing happened in Poland last week - the prime minister called for his MPs to vote in favour of a gay civil partnerships bill and enough of them defied him that the bill failed. Still kudos for conservative prime ministers for not being as scumbaggy as their back benchers.

[Sheilbh]

In fairness this did pass and it was a free vote. It's a failure of his leadership though.

One interesting note is what the role of an MP is, especially on these sorts of issues. There were a number of MPs (some of whom are secretly gay) who personally support gay marriage but believed their constituents were opposed, and vice-versa. They viewed themselves as delegates and voted for their constituents' perceived wishes.

And the opposite happened. There were MPs who said they thought they were going against their constituents (on either side) but were representatives, so they voted on principle.

It's the old Burke debate.

[Josquius]

Apparently about 140 Tory MPs voted against, and 130 for. So, even though it's a free vote, Cameron kind of lost his party.

Edit: Labour think about 20 of their MPs voted against.

So its fair to say the tories are still homophobic (and by extension racist poor people haters).
Really didn't expect that many tories to vote against. The party was overall against it.... Just have to hope a lot of them were playing politics- since they knew it would pass anyway it gave them a chance to harmlessly show off their conservative credentials.

[garbon]

So its fair to say the tories are still homophobic (and by extension racist poor people haters).

[Martinus]

In fairness this did pass and it was a free vote. It's a failure of his leadership though.

One interesting note is what the role of an MP is, especially on these sorts of issues. There were a number of MPs (some of whom are secretly gay) who personally support gay marriage but believed their constituents were opposed, and vice-versa. They viewed themselves as delegates and voted for their constituents' perceived wishes.

And the opposite happened. There were MPs who said they thought they were going against their constituents (on either side) but were representatives, so they voted on principle.

It's the old Burke debate.

Is the British (unwritten) constitution silent on this issue?

The Polish constitution states that at least from a formal perspective all MPs are supposed to vote in the interest of the whole nation and are not representatives of their districts.

[Eddie Teach]

So its fair to say the tories are still homophobic (and by extension racist poor people haters).

I think he just called you a poor.