The Return to the Debt Limit Apocolypse Thread

[Admiral Yi]

How do you kick the debt ceiling can down the road?

You don't.  You kick the deficit reduction can down the road, which up to now debt ceiling has been a part of.

[MadImmortalMan]

Word is, there will be some stuff attached that Reid can't abide, so the Senate will not bring it to a vote. Yay, another standoff.

[Sheilbh]

You don't.  You kick the deficit reduction can down the road, which up to now debt ceiling has been a part of.

How has the debt ceiling been part of deficit reduction up to now?

But that's my view, you can't kick the can down the road. You can with the deficit reduction but the debt ceiling is either you enable the executive to pay what you've told them to do, or you don't. The only way you could kick the can down the road was if you were talking about proposals to abolish it (almost no-one else in the world has a similar mechanism) or proposals to raise it so high it doesn't matter (the Danish strategy).

Incidentally this is what McConnell had to filibuster himself over. The Administration proposed changing the way the debt ceiling worked, so it was automatically approved and Congress had to accept or decline it - if they declined it the President could then veto that. So to refuse to raise the debt ceiling the House would need a two thirds majority. McConnell, during the fiscal cliff debates, wanted to stir up some trouble with the Democrats and, thinking they lacked the votes, proposed precisely this. It turns out the Democrats did have enough votes in the Senate, so McConnell had to filibuster his own proposal

[Admiral Yi]

How has the debt ceiling been part of deficit reduction up to now?

Back in the summer the GOP held a gun to the debt ceiling's head and said unless you cut spending we'll kill everyone in the room.

But that's my view, you can't kick the can down the road. You can with the deficit reduction but the debt ceiling is either you enable the executive to pay what you've told them to do, or you don't. The only way you could kick the can down the road was if you were talking about proposals to abolish it (almost no-one else in the world has a similar mechanism) or proposals to raise it so high it doesn't matter (the Danish strategy).

I agree with this in principle.  When the legislature votes in a budget, they vote in a de facto increase in the debt ceiling.  I would have no problem with abolishing the debt ceiling altogether.  But it is a little disingenuous to say that the House voted voluntarily for the current budget.  They were blackmailed with across the board tax increases much the same way they previously tried to blackmail Democrats with a default.

[Sheilbh]

Back in the summer the GOP held a gun to the debt ceiling's head and said unless you cut spending we'll kill everyone in the room.

Yeah, but that's the first time that's ever happened. I think saying 'up to now' the debt ceiling's been tied to deficit reduction implies more than catastrafuck one off.

I agree with this in principle.  When the legislature votes in a budget, they vote in a de facto increase in the debt ceiling.  I would have no problem with abolishing the debt ceiling altogether.  But it is a little disingenuous to say that the House voted voluntarily for the current budget.

We'll have to depart here because I don't understand how this works in the US. In the UK if the legislature fails to pass a budget there's an election until a majority can pass a budget. Whatever way of funding government the US legislature hoodwinks into existence should be funded. So abolish the debt ceiling or increase it beyond doubt like the Danes.

But I can't think of any specific spending cuts that the House Republicans have proposed in their last term - except for plan B, which ironically, was just a tax raise.

[Phillip V]

Fiscal Footnote: Big Senate Gift to Drug Maker

'A provision buried in the fiscal bill passed this month gives Amgen, the world’s largest biotechnology firm, more time to sell a lucrative kidney dialysis drug without price restraints.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/20/us/medicare-pricing-delay-is-political-win-for-amgen-drug-maker.html

The language buried in Section 632 of the "fiscal clif" bill delays a set of Medicare price restraints on a class of drugs that includes Sensipar, a lucrative Amgen pill used by kidney dialysis patients.

The provision gives Amgen an additional two years to sell Sensipar without government controls. The news was so welcome that the company’s chief executive quickly relayed it to investment analysts. But it is projected to cost Medicare up to $500 million over that period.

Amgen, which has a small army of 74 lobbyists in the capital, was the only company to argue aggressively for the delay, according to several Congressional aides of both parties.

Supporters of the delay, primarily leaders of the Senate Finance Committee who have long benefited from Amgen’s political largess, said it was necessary to allow regulators to prepare properly for the pricing change.

But critics, including several Congressional aides who were stunned to find the measure in the final bill, pointed out that Amgen had already won a previous two-year delay, and they depicted a second one as an unnecessary giveaway.

[CountDeMoney]

Let's hear it for shareholder value.

[The Minsky Moment]

I agree with this in principle.  When the legislature votes in a budget, they vote in a de facto increase in the debt ceiling.  I would have no problem with abolishing the debt ceiling altogether. 

Agreed - once the appropriation is made, it's made.  Adding in a supplemental debt limit overdetermines the problem.
FYI - Judge Posner has come out publicly questioning the constitutionality of the limit.  It does seem to run afoul of the spirit of INS v. Chadha as it seems to give the Congress a quasi-veto over previously enacted legislation.

[MadImmortalMan]

They can't just abolish the debt ceiling unless Congress plans to start voting on every bond issuance again.

[garbon]

Let's hear it for shareholder value.

Maybe they'll have extra budget for market research!

[The Minsky Moment]

They can't just abolish the debt ceiling unless Congress plans to start voting on every bond issuance again.

Says who?
My copy of the Constitution puts executive power in the executive branch.  And my copy of the US code imbues the Secretary of Treasury with broad powers to manage the public debt and carry out financing services for the government as required.

If Congress makes an appropriation and directs the executive to carry it out but does not specifically tax or attach a particular bond issue to the appropriation, then it is the obligation of the Executive to use its general executive authority to raise the required funds on the credit of the United States.  Doing anything else would involve faithlessness in execution of the laws and violate the President's Art II duties.

[MadImmortalMan]

They can't just abolish the debt ceiling unless Congress plans to start voting on every bond issuance again.

Says who?
My copy of the Constitution puts executive power in the executive branch.  And my copy of the US code imbues the Secretary of Treasury with broad powers to manage the public debt and carry out financing services for the government as required.

If Congress makes an appropriation and directs the executive to carry it out but does not specifically tax or attach a particular bond issue to the appropriation, then it is the obligation of the Executive to use its general executive authority to raise the required funds on the credit of the United States.  Doing anything else would involve faithlessness in execution of the laws and violate the President's Art II duties.

Says Article 1. The executive can't buy toilet paper to wipe their asses without the approval of Congress.

[Razgovory]

He's not buying anything.

[derspiess]

He's not buying anything.

That's right-- HE'S SELLING OUR KIDS' FUTURE

[The Minsky Moment]

They can't just abolish the debt ceiling unless Congress plans to start voting on every bond issuance again.

Says who?
My copy of the Constitution puts executive power in the executive branch.  And my copy of the US code imbues the Secretary of Treasury with broad powers to manage the public debt and carry out financing services for the government as required.

If Congress makes an appropriation and directs the executive to carry it out but does not specifically tax or attach a particular bond issue to the appropriation, then it is the obligation of the Executive to use its general executive authority to raise the required funds on the credit of the United States.  Doing anything else would involve faithlessness in execution of the laws and violate the President's Art II duties.

Says Article 1. The executive can't buy toilet paper to wipe their asses without the approval of Congress.

Move to strike as non-responsive.
The Article I authority exists once the appropriation is made.