Church of England votes against woman bishops

[chipwich]

I'd rather have a 95% atheist world with 5% true Christians than a bunch of CINOs running around with modern, incompatible views on the Church.

I think you've confused Roman Catholicism for Jehovah's Witnesses. Better check with CDM's theology professor.

Dude, it's in history books.  It's not like it's some kind of big secret.  Nuns were frequently called the "brides of Christ", in the middle ages.  You don't have to look through books on theology to find it.  Ordinary history of the middle ages will suffice.

Nah, leave it to Chipper to pick and choose his history:  Council of Laodicea at Lycum?  PICS OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN LULZ

It's like talking to a Chick tract here

How do I know your religious belief is correct?

Go read this religious document that says so.

[Martinus]

Does this mean that marriage is not strictly between a man and a woman, since it can also be between a man and a church?

I read recently about a guy who wants to break a record or something and lick every cathedral in UK. And he is not even married to any of them. 

[Razgovory]

I'd rather have a 95% atheist world with 5% true Christians than a bunch of CINOs running around with modern, incompatible views on the Church.

I think you've confused Roman Catholicism for Jehovah's Witnesses. Better check with CDM's theology professor.

Dude, it's in history books.  It's not like it's some kind of big secret.  Nuns were frequently called the "brides of Christ", in the middle ages.  You don't have to look through books on theology to find it.  Ordinary history of the middle ages will suffice.

Nah, leave it to Chipper to pick and choose his history:  Council of Laodicea at Lycum?  PICS OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN LULZ

It's like talking to a Chick tract here

How do I know your religious belief is correct?

Go read this religious document that says so.

It's not a question of whether a religious belief is correct, it's if people have held this belief.  That is in the history books.

[chipwich]

I'm not asking whether people have held this belief. I'm asking why they believe it.

As I said on the first page,

I'm not asking what the Catholic Church calls nuns. I'm asking why that should be so.

You blew that off the last time I posted it , are you going to do that again?

[Camerus]

Supporting woman bishops is all well and good, until you've got one for your church.   

[dps]

Christ was male.  Priests are the symbolic representation of Christ, and the Church his bride.  Ergo, priests are male.  It is not a doctrinal issue, but a sacred tradition.  There is no debate.

It's not an issue of gender equality, as Mary was elevated to Holy Mother, above and beyond the Apostles.  So there, sugar tits.

Do you actually believe this or are you just explaining Catholic logic?

I know the Catholics have some really trippy shit but the church is a woman somehow and Jesus got married? I guess that's in one of the catholic books.

Do any of you snot-nosed, smug monkeys ever take theology, or are all your philosophy courses restricted to the post-industrial atheists?

No, don't read up on the history of western civilization without its most influential institution or anything, that would be wrong.  AUGUSTINE WAS A HIPPO

I'm not going to take a fucking theology course just to sort out marianism. Then again, if actual Catholic theology was like this thread, the professor would announce IT'S ANCIENT TRADITION CLASS DISMISSED.

I'm not familiar with the Catholic books. Could you point me to where it says that churches are women and you can marry them, an that Jesus did so?

Does this mean that marriage is not strictly between a man and a woman, since it can also be between a man and a church?

Dude, it's extremely common to here the church (the "church" in the sense of  the brotherhood of all believers, not as in a particular denomination nor as in a building in which worship is conducted) referred to as the Bride of Christ.   It's not just a Catholic thing.  For somebody in the West to not know this is almost culturally retarded, even if the person in question is an atheist, or a follower of a non-Christian faith.  It's like not knowing what people are talking about when they mention the Twilight saga--you might not have ever read the books or have any desire to read them, but unless you've been living under a rock the past few years, you've heard about them.

I'm not asking whether people have held this belief. I'm asking why they believe it.

People have answered that, and you've blown them off.

[garbon]

Here, chipwich, here, boy. Time to get back in your box.

[Martim Silva]

Chipwich, there are many Catholicn theological sites that explain all those things to those who don't know them. Here:

http://www.catholicity.com/catechism/the_body_of_christ.html

The Church as Christ's Body has three specific qualities:

    She is one body
    She has Christ as her head
    She is Christ's bride

[chipwich]

People have answered that, and you've blown them off.

Then repeat to me what they have answered.

In order for me to believe this claim, regardless of how many billion of people believe it. Billions of Muslims believe that Muhammad was the messenger of God and I don't believe that either, no matter how ,many Islamic councils or websites say so. I'm being generous as it is by taking the bible's word for it.

Martin Silva was kind enough to actually use a link that cited the Bible. Thank you for doing in one post what a gaggle of condescending twits couldn't do in 30. I agree that Ephesians has some language that could suggest that Christ has a similar relationship to the church as a man has to a wife. I can see where they're coming from so I'll stop asking about that.

Now that doesn't address the consequences of that, such as when Christ married the millions of people who have become nuns (saying it's because he married the church is like saying I'm Michelle Obama's husband), why Christ is not considered to have married monks, and why God's wife can't be priests.

[Tonitrus]

The Church as Christ's Body has three specific qualities:

    She is one body
    She has Christ as her head
    She is Christ's bride

The same head as Christ, and married to him?  Creepy.

[Malthus]

The Church as Christ's Body has three specific qualities:

    She is one body
    She has Christ as her head
    She is Christ's bride

The same head as Christ, and married to him?  Creepy.

Causes real confusion when Christ says "gimmie head, babe". 

[Grinning_Colossus]

This kind of thing is getting dumb. A lot of Christians want to emphasize 21st century values to make their religion more palatable. I'm an actual Christian, a Catholic matter-of-fact, and the simple truth is much of Christian doctrine does not jive with 21st century ideals of equality. Church doctrine and even Christian theology is not about or even promoting of gender equality in the Church hierarchy. (Doctrine also clearly states in Galatians that all are equal in salvation.) Genuine Christianity however cannot, if you read scripture at its face value, treat women and men as equal in business of the Church. You can gnash your teeth and be mad about it or not, but at the end of the day I wish these atheists-in-all-but-name that still go to churches and advocate basically unchristian things would stop calling themselves Christians, it deludes the brand.

Christianity was never intended to be easy, it wasn't supposed to be something you could sign up for casually as some sort of faddish thing. It's supposed to be hard. Fasting is supposed to be often, for example, and most have simply abandoned that. Even Orthodox Christians, who I greatly respect for their adherence to some traditions despite their unpopularity, have mostly gone soft on fasting.

If Christianity just changes with all the social changes, then you might as well stop calling it Christianity. I'd rather have a 95% atheist world with 5% true Christians than a bunch of CINOs running around with modern, incompatible views on the Church.

You might be interested in Georgian Orthodoxy. It's a strongly Judaic form of Christianity (they converted before Rome), and they seem to fast all the fucking time.

[Martinus]

As it's a religious group, I have no real opinion on this. The congregation as a whole has a right to decide who they're led by. If it's distasteful to some, there are other religious organizations to choose from.

Brits, what is your opinion? Will this affect anything in any meaningful way in the UK?

I'm hearing there is a lot of backlash over this from the government and MPs.

Church of England isolated further on equal marriage following bishop vote

by Scott Roberts
21 November 2012, 11:31am

The Church of England's decision to vote against the introduction of women bishops is also likely to undermine its opposition to same-sex marriages, according to an Anglican theologian.

On Tuesday night, the General Synod tore up plans to ordain women as bishops despite overwhelming support in parishes.

While 324 synod members voted for women bishops, church voting rules meant 122 votes against were enough to block it.

The Reverend Canon Robert Cotton of Westcott House theological college in Cambridge said: "We have made David Cameron's job getting gay marriage through much easier — why should he take the Church of England seriously when it seems interested only in looking after its own?"

The Bishop of Durham, Justin Welby, who is the next Archbishop of Canterbury and a supporter of women bishops, tweeted: "Very grim day, most of all for women priests and supporters, need to surround all with prayer & love and co-operate with our healing God."

Although Dr Welby has previously stated his opposition to equal marriage and the ordination of gay bishops, in a speech made at Lambeth Palace on 9 November, Dr Welby signalled that he was willing to engage on LGBT issues in his new role as Archbishop of Canterbury.

According to the Telegraph, Labour MP Ben Bradshaw responded to the defeat by saying: "This means the church is being held hostage by an unholy and unrepresentative alliance of conservative evangelicals and conservative Catholics.

"This will add to clamour for disestablishment, there is even talk of moves in parliament to remove the church's exemption from the Equality Act."

Culture Secretary and Minister for Equalities Maria Miller also expressed her disappointment at the vote and said it showed that the church was "behind the times".

Conservative MP: Church is deluded if it thinks Parliament will listen to opposition of same-sex marriage

by Benjamin Cohen
22 November 2012, 7:53pm

The Conservative MP Sir Tony Baldry who speaks on behalf of the Church of England's commissioners in Parliament has warned that the church is deluding itself if it thinks that MPs will listen to its arguments against marriage equality for gay couples.

Sir Tony, the MP for North Oxfordshire, is the link between the Church of England and the House of Commons so his views hold considerable weight.

Speaking in the House of Commons, he said: "I suspect that every right honourable and honourable Member has recently had representations from church members on same-sex marriage.

"If the Church of England thinks that Parliament will listen to it with considerable attention on moral issues such as same-sex marriage and so on when the Church of England seems to be so out of step on other issues of concern to Parliament, it is simply deluding itself."

Sir Tony has previously spoken out against equal marriage.

Sir Tony also criticised the General Synod of the Church of England for rejecting proposals to allow women bishops. He said: "As a consequence of the decision by the General Synod, the Church of England no longer looks like a national church; it simply looks like a sect, like any other sect.

He added: "If it wishes to be a national church that reflects the nation, it has to reflect the values of the nation."

Yesterday, the Reverend Canon Robert Cotton of Westcott House theological college in Cambridge echoed the sentiments of Sir Tony: "We have made David Cameron's job getting gay marriage through much easier — why should he take the Church of England seriously when it seems interested only in looking after its own?"

[The Brain]

If women priests find their career opportunities blocked in the Church of England won't they leave for the competition? Can the CoE afford such faith drain?

[merithyn]

I'm hearing there is a lot of backlash over this from the government and MPs.

Huh. That's actually really interesting. I never really understood how the whole "official state church" thing worked. It'll be neat to see how this all plays out and how the UK's government will handle things.