Feminism

[merithyn]

Also from your article:

While these particular women earn more than their male peers, women on the whole haven't reached equal status in any particular job or education level. For instance, women with a bachelor's degree had median earnings of $39,571 between 2006 and 2008, compared with $59,079 for men at the same education level, according to the Census.

At every education level, from high-school dropouts to Ph.D.s, women continue to earn less than their male peers.

Also, women tend to see wages stagnate or fall after they have children.

[Sheilbh]

I've not read all of this thread so I may be about to repeat a lot of points.

I think one of the problems feminism has had has been that a lot of the most prominent recent feminists have been academics writing for an academic audience.  The most successful modern 'feminist', in my view, is Paglia precisely because she doesn't.  Germaine Greer () and Simone de Beauvoir (I don't know Betty Friedan at all) were passionate, seething with anger and writing books that could be easily read and understood by millions.  Those books were, they all became best-sellers.  I think many modern feminist writers and thinkers are addressing an audience of a handful of likeminded academics and otherwise sit, unread, in university libraries.

Having said that I love feminism and inwardly cringe when I see women distancing themselves from it, because I think the fight's still essential and unwon.  It's easy to talk about equality of opportunity in jobs as being something that we've attained (I don't think it's the case, but we're on our way) but that, to me, seems to be based on equality of opportunity in social role which we haven't achieved and I don't think are close to.

At this point I think there is still a social stigma attached to, for example, a man leaving his job to look after the children - at best there's a wondrous admiration.  For any sense of equality there should surely be indifferent.  It should be as natural and understood that a man would be the one to leave his job.  In certain parts of our society I think there's still a social pressure on women to give up their work and become 'mothers' as if they're somehow not because they can't afford to.  So I don't think that socially a man is as defined by 'fatherhood' as a woman is by 'motherhood' (and I don't think there's a similar pressure to become a parent) which creates a difference that makes equality of opportunity a bit of a figment.

Similarly, incidentally, I think there are less and less 'male' jobs out there - though eyebrows are still raised at a female engineer or whatever.  But I don't think the same exists for men.  There are definite 'female' jobs.  I think primary school teaching, nursing and so on are still viewed as 'female' roles and a man being in that job is almost viewed with suspicion (especially the teaching, but that's probably partly down to paedophilia-mentalism).  Again this is a problem that narrows choice for men and women.  The goal, in my view, in both cases isn't that everything's 50/50 but that our reaction is indifference.  That men can be fathers and women mothers, in any jobs or not, without social judgement, stigma, pressure or whatever else.

Also I think I'm uncomfortable with aspects of 'post-feminism'.  I think my problem is that it seems like women are allowed to be more empowered in their sexuality than was the case in the pre-feminist age.  But the setting of the terms of that sexuality, culturally, still seems to be done by men.  It often looks to me that 'post-feminism' is a lot like 'pre-feminism' with pre-marital sex and so on.  I'm not sure that's a victory for feminism. 

I think the terms of feminism like empowerment and liberation have been coopted by a still very unfeminist society.  While feminism itself has been turned into a negative which I think is very sad.

As an aside I also think the judgement of women in the media is as bad as ever if they fail to fit into a narrow definition of what a woman should look at.  Every time I read a piece about Adele showing it doesn't matter what you look like I want to scream.  It makes her sound like some sort of monstrous swamp-beast when in fact she is, to my eyes, a slightly larger but relatively pretty girl.  I remember the, perhaps perfect, Daily Mail line after Lady Gaga put on weight on tour: 'despite piling on the pounds, Lady Gaga still managed to find times to greet her fans'

So while that's going on I think feminism's got a long way to go and rather than shy from 'feminism' I think we all need to get our copies of the Female Eunuch out and burn some bras 

[merithyn]

I you, Sheilbh.

[MadImmortalMan]

The goal, in my view, in both cases isn't that everything's 50/50 but that our reaction is indifference.

The man is a wordsmith.

[Neil]

Wait a minute.  People make fun of fat guys all the time.  Apparently Val Kilmer was seen in a wetsuit, and everyone laughted at him.  And we always laugh at fat Martinus.

[garbon]

Wait a minute.  People make fun of fat guys all the time.  Apparently Val Kilmer was seen in a wetsuit, and everyone laughted at him.  And we always laugh at fat Martinus.

And yet we'll still elect a Chris Christie and Bill Richardson. Sorry ain't buying it.

[Berkut]

I you, Sheilbh.

Really?

I think his attitude is exactly what is wrong with feminism.

The idea that men and women are the same is, just, well...boring.

[garbon]

I you, Sheilbh.

Really?

I think his attitude is exactly what is wrong with feminism.

The idea that men and women are the same is, just, well...boring.

Having the opportunity to do whatever one wants without judgement is boring?

[Sheilbh]

I think it should be left up to the individual to decide how to prioritize between family and career.  I wouldn't want to see it legislated.

Over here we've paid maternity and paid paternity leave (David Cameron took off the two weeks when his daughter was born).

What Scandinavia and other Northern European welfare states do is, in addition to those days which can't be transferred between parents, there's 'family leave' (I think that's the name) which the parents can split as they want.  From memory it lasts for up to 12 months but the amount of pay you get tapers off - so if a family uses the full amount many of those days would be unpaid leave.  But the mum could take all of that time off, the dad could, they could split it equally, they could even use it to do flexible working for a year or two (dad takes of Mondays and Tuesdays, mum is at home the rest of the week) and there's also shared days which are basically sort-of part-time.  I think you can use those days, between the parents, until they're in school (so 4-5), but once they're used up that's it.

I think we're planning to adopt something similar but far, far, far less generous and a bit simpler.  You'll get x amounts of week paid leave and unpaid leave, a certain number of weeks have to be taken by the woman (or lost) and a certain number must be taken by the men (or lost) aside from that it's how the family choose to split it.  Personally I think it makes a lot of sense.

The idea that men and women are the same is, just, well...boring.

Where did I say they were the same?

[Berkut]

For any sense of equality there should surely be indifferent.  It should be as natural and understood that a man would be the one to leave his job.

Seems to be what that is suggesting.

I don't think most men are as equally built to be primary caregivers as most women, and hence it will never be as natural and understood. Not because we are not feminist enough, but simply because men and women are in fact different, and hence we should not expect or demand indifferent results.

[merithyn]

Really?

I think his attitude is exactly what is wrong with feminism.

The idea that men and women are the same is, just, well...boring.

I think you misunderstood what he wrote. He never said that they were the same. He said that the choices made should be so mundane as to be non-news. That isn't the same as making men women and vice-versa. It's always about choices, and those choices - in whatever direction by whichever gender - should be so dull as to be non-news.

[garbon]

I don't think most men are as equally built to be primary caregivers as most women

Sorry but this strikes me as an opinion that will go into the dustbin of history. After all, if that's true - then we probably shouldn't have gay male couples adopting kids. They aren't as well fit to the task as most women.

[merithyn]

Seems to be what that is suggesting.

I don't think most men are as equally built to be primary caregivers as most women, and hence it will never be as natural and understood. Not because we are not feminist enough, but simply because men and women are in fact different, and hence we should not expect or demand indifferent results.

I would totally argue this. Men may not be equipped to breast feed, but otherwise, there's no reason that men couldn't or shouldn't stay home with the children if that's what they choose.

The thing is, when it comes to equality, everyone should have the right to decide for themselves - without fear of judgment - what works for them. I hate that there are men who would make the better stay-at-home parent who choose not to because they feel like they'd be judged harshly if they did. That's sad, and wrong, imo.

[Neil]

Wait a minute.  People make fun of fat guys all the time.  Apparently Val Kilmer was seen in a wetsuit, and everyone laughted at him.  And we always laugh at fat Martinus.

And yet we'll still elect a Chris Christie and Bill Richardson. Sorry ain't buying it.

And they'll elect a hag like Hillary Clinton, or the WoW lady.

[Sheilbh]

Sorry but this strikes me as an opinion that will go into the dustbin of history. After all, if that's true - then we probably shouldn't have gay male couples adopting kids. They aren't as well fit to the task as most women.

I entirely agree, it basically is the argument against gay adoption.  My dad had gone from a very poor area of Liverpool to being in the merchant navy for 30-40 years - so he was from probably the most masculine of backgrounds but for a number of practical reasons he was the man who raised my little brother (and to a lesser extent me) while my mum worked.  He was as able to be a caregiver and as good at that as other people's mums seemed to be.

That's also one of the reason that feminism fractured as already working women (and minority women) got their voices out there that what certain middle-upper class white women were agitating for - wasn't of much use to them.

This is very true.  The voice was there but just not heard.  There's a brilliant book on Virginia Woolf and her servants which deals with this.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/rosemary-hill/why-we-have-them-i-cant-think
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/01/imperfect-union/307221/

I always think, when I see pictures of Suffragettes, of how many thousands of women were in service to those on the marches.