New Quebec Language Law silliness: "Le Magasin Walmart"

[garbon]

...Even I think this may be a tad excessive

Edit:  Although, fuck it, just ban use of English

That'd be stellar for commerce.

[DontSayBanana]

...Even I think this may be a tad excessive

Edit:  Although, fuck it, just ban use of English

Honestly, I'm not a fan of the language laws for exactly this reason: they're incredibly one-sided.  They're isolationist, protectionist, and what they tell businesses and citizens alike is "you're not welcome unless you fit your square peg into our round hole."  They're pretty much using the language laws to do what those same laws were supposed to prevent in the first place.

[garbon]

Sometimes it can be fun to try and force a square peg into a round hole.

[viper37]

But this is precisely why I am frothing at the mouth over this.  It would be one thing if Walmart put up big signs on their stores that readw Walmart Plumbing Supply and Beauty Salon (although I still think the signage law is stupid--if a company wants to lose French speaking business, let 'em) , but Walmart is a company name.  It's as much of an English word as Sony or Samsung or Yoplait is.

Once every company is english only what will French customers do, stop buying finished products and build everything themselves?  6 million french speakers on one side, 324 million on the other.  At some point, you got to stand your ground, otherwise, people will walk over you.

When a muslim or a Jew complain there's no Halal or Kosher food being served in the airplane, the airplane is run by racist schmuck.  When a French complain he's not spoken to in French by a corporation mandated by law to do so, he gets expelled from the plain and the medias portrays the French as racist intolerant.

People in BC are starting to complain about Chinese signs.  People in California, and in other US States are trying to limit Spanish education.

There's nothing really different.  No one would expect to do business in Germany in english only.  No one expects the German to provide free english only public education from kindergarden to university.  But we are expected to, and we do it.  Not that it bothers me, personally.  I like the english-french duality, I dislike mono-cultural/linguistical entities.  I think it's great Montreal and Quebec city have a vibrant english speaking minority with their own distinctiveness added to our own.  Lots of Irish in Gaspesia and around Quebec city, I think it's cool.

As I said, I don't care about the trademarks.  I'd prefer a Marché Viper, owned by a Québécois, with branches everywhere. 

But even if it was economically possible, I guess Canadians would never shop in a big store with a French name.  Quebec based corporations hoping to sell outside our borders have had to adapt.  Bombardier became "Bombardier Recreative Products (BRP)" to attack the North American market with its products.  In the past, Aventure Électronique became "Adventure Electronic" trying to penetrate the Ontarian market.  Heck, expatriates even have to anglicize their restaurants name to "Pierre's Poutine" in Ontario to hope attracting customers.  Numbers speaks.  And I think Americans would react the same with a big store chain.

Anyway, I won't defend some stupid bureaucrat's idea.  I don't even care if someone answers me in english first, so long as I can get spoken to in French, in a timely manner, not being transferred 8 times, I'll accept it.  But I will defend the general idea behing the language laws.  It's symptomatic of being a minority, but it's a necessary evil.  And every culture react the same when it feels threatened.

[viper37]

And this is NOT about "French-Canadian cultural reinforcement"?

it is about that.  In the mind of some people.  It is not about a customer getting confused because he doesn't know what Walmart sells.

[garbon]

People in BC are starting to complain about Chinese signs.  People in California, and in other US States are trying to limit Spanish education.

I'm not sure these are the examples you want. After all, with no official language in many states (and not federally), we end up catering to many languages as necessary.

[viper37]

So you're saying you'd be cool with it if everybody else forced, say, Rossy locations outside of Quebec to change their name to "That French Store Rossy."

I don't even know Rossy.  If Canadians want the store to change name, it's their thing.

[Jacob]

Which is the core of the debate here.  Not that english canadian media will report it that way of course.
It's not unusual for the citizens to go to court against various government office because bureaucrats have a creative way of interpreting the laws.  It's not unusual for the government, the elected body representing us, to sit on the fence and claim "independance" when it suits them.

Judgement against the government have been numerous.  Wether it be the creative interpretation of the construction laws by the Commission de la Construction du Québec or the creative interpretation of what your revenues should be by Revenu Québec, corporations and citizens go to court every day against their government to have their rigths respected.  It's not like Walmart is some unique case just because it's about a trademark.  But it's damn sexier than "Citizen sues Revenu Québec for harassment".

That's actually a pretty interesting point. Thanks

Are there a section of Quebec nationalists who are generally in favour of the language laws themselves who nonetheless support individual complaints on the grounds that the bureaucrats are being pricks?

[Jacob]

Viper, if people in BC complain about Chinese signs they're dismissed as racist crackpots.

Personally, I don't have a fundamental issue with the spirit of the QC language laws; though I reserve the right to find individual implementations dumb.

[Zoupa]

Are there a section of Quebec nationalists who are generally in favour of the language laws themselves who nonetheless support individual complaints on the grounds that the bureaucrats are being pricks?

Hi. My name is Zoupa. I like asian chicks.

[viper37]

1) How does that happen? I've never been to your other two examples, so I'm not sure if they would match Boston. Meanwhile, my last trip to the North End of Boston (October), I noted how similar (though Italian) it looked to Vieux-Quebec.

Boston, Ottawa, Charlottetown, they all have similar architecture.  You can add Halifax and Toronto to the mix.
I find Quebec city to be unique in North America, for a city.  Of course, there's the countryside.  Except for some parts of Acadia, Quebec is different than the rest of North America.  Well, most of it anyway.  The later cities&villages to have a typical anglo-saxon look.  Anyway, even staying on the highway you should have noticed the difference during your trip, no?

2) So what? If French is irrelevant to live there (as it often is in Montreal) what's the harm? They'll quickly be dissuaded when they head out of cities and encounter French speaking citizens / if not, then again what's the harm if people speak the language that they want?

What's the harm in providing free romanina education for everyone who asks?  Free vietnamese?  Free chinese?
What's the harm in translating everything in every language?  What's the harm in being treated like a second class citizen, being denied jobs & promotions because your primary language is not english?
This is the way it was in the 50s in Montreal, and in many places in Quebec.

Neil's attitude may seem a bit "overblown" but it is actually representative of a sizable portion of canadians.  The ones who complain about our Prime Minister using French during his official speeches, for example.

3) Again, what's the problem? I'm not sure what these demands would be though feel free to give me 19th and early 20th century examples.

Make it mid 20th to late 20th and early 21st, actually.

Like, oh, say, having two seperate university hospital, one run by english staffers for english patients, the other for the french.  Why have one bilingual hospital when you can can have two for 3 times the costs?  Why hire a French administrator when you can hire an anglophone crook who took refuge in a fiscal paradise after defrauding the hospital and accepting a bribe?

Why elect a former seperatist politician for mayor when you can vote for a blind&deaf man who admits never having heard about any "corruption" while everyone arounds him get arrested?  And who's gonna pay for the english Montrealers desire to keep a known idiot as mayor?  Everyone in Quebec, of course

You said in another thread you didn't want the majority of americans paying for your lifestyle, as gay couples shouldn't benefit from any tax break like us breeders get.  But here, you don't seem having a problem for the majority of Quebecers paying for a minority who wish to keep their own lifestyle, while at the same time not understanding why the majority of the province wishes to do the same.

[viper37]

Viper, if people in BC complain about Chinese signs they're dismissed as racist crackpots.

Personally, I don't have a fundamental issue with the spirit of the QC language laws; though I reserve the right to find individual implementations dumb.

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2012/01/14/why-chinese-only-signs-arent-good-for-canada/

La Belle Province is where proud francophones, who value their distinct culture more than most British Columbians do their West Coast heritage, have decided that French must predominate on almost all signs, with English equivalents usually smaller.

[...]
Calgary officials have not been as cautious as those in Richmond. One Calgary city consultative commit-tee, headed by Tom Leung, strongly argued against the kind of ethnic malls where foreign languages predominate, fearing they can isolate minorities and lead to failure.


And here:
http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2012/01/17/more-chinese-only-sign-debate-three-chinese-canadian-voices/

[viper37]

Are there a section of Quebec nationalists who are generally in favour of the language laws themselves who nonetheless support individual complaints on the grounds that the bureaucrats are being pricks?

Depends what you will define as "Quebec nationalist".  To many, even among the seperatist themselves, not only english canadians, you can't be a Quebec nationalist if you're not a seperatist.

But realistically, among Quebec nationalists, many support the individual complaints of Walmart&co against the bureaucrats.  Even among the seperatists, many believe the bureaucrats are asking too much.  It's just that... well, it's politics.  It's like BB disagreeing with the Conservative, you think he'd tell us?    
So, many seperatists will follow the partyline, even if they don't really agree with it, for fear of damaging the cause.
A few have voiced dissent, maybe some more will do in the days to come.

It's similar to how the Liberal supporters where willing to shut their eyes in front of illegal financing&corruption allegations.  It was more important to protect "the cause" and the party against the sovereignists than offering criticism of bad ideas, wich could be exploited by the opposition.

[viper37]

I'm not sure these are the examples you want. After all, with no official language in many states (and not federally), we end up catering to many languages as necessary.

So I can move to the US and request my tax form in French?  I can get to a local unemployment office and ask for someone to speak to me in French and that would be seen as totally ok?
A spanish speaking citizen in Mississipi would get a trial in Spanish if he desired so?

I have doubts, but if you tel me it's true, I'll believe you, I've never been south of Boston.

[viper37]

Are there a section of Quebec nationalists who are generally in favour of the language laws themselves who nonetheless support individual complaints on the grounds that the bureaucrats are being pricks?

Hi. My name is Zoupa. I like asian chicks.

That's a fetish I'll never get.  Half asian-caucasian, cool, but full asian girl, no, just no.