History in Germany (and Italy)

[Sheilbh]

I had to look up Whiggish history as I didn't know the term.

I think that's mayybe too British and constitutional definition.  The other one quoted by Wiki is more what I meant:

By the mid-1970s, it had become commonplace among historians of science to employ the terms 'Whig' and 'Whiggish', often accompanied by one or more of 'hagiographic', 'internalist', 'triumphalist', even 'positivist', to denigrate grand narratives of scientific progress. At one level there is, indeed, an obvious parallel with the attacks on Whig constitutional history in the opening decades of the century. For, as P. B. M. Blaas has shown, those earlier attacks were part and parcel of a more general onslaught in the name of an autonomous, professional and scientific history, on popular, partisan and moralising historiography. Similarly,... For post-WWII champions of the newly professionalized history of science the targets were quite different. Above all, they were out to establish a critical distance between the history of science and the teaching and promotion of the sciences. In particular, they were suspicious of the grand celebratory and didactic narratives of scientific discovery and progress that had proliferated in the inter-war years.

Maybe Whig history is the wrong phrase but I basically meant a sort of historical narrative that celebrates the past as to some extent a story of progress. 

I can see how arguably the natural story of Germany in a positive light is of natural progress towards unification and eventual reunification in which case the Prussians play a large, arguably positive role.  But that what you say about them means that story isn't necessarily accurate and can't really be told that way because of their influence on the Nazis and certain 'Prussian values'.

So it just interested me how Germany deals with that history and with the fact that there are a myriad of local histories that can be quite divergent before you reach 'Germany'.  Similarly in Italy there's no Italian narrative and I can't see one of progress towards unification that isn't effectively triumphalist about the North.

Do you know if there's any local element in areas like Saxony or Bavaria?

Yeah it's the book you and Valmy mentioned that I'm reading.  So far I think it's very interesting about a state I know very little about.  I also don't really know much about the 17th and 18th century in Europe beyond the Thirty Years War and the Revolutionary period so the early section's been fascinating.

[Viking]

Sweden taught Prussia that they needed a military.

Eh, no, that would be Lithuania and Poland and all their easily conquerable land. Sweden probably taught Brandenburg and Saxony that they needed militaries. Brandenburg learned, Saxony didn't.

[The Brain]

Sweden taught Prussia that they needed a military.

Eh, no, that would be Lithuania and Poland and all their easily conquerable land. Sweden probably taught Brandenburg and Saxony that they needed militaries. Brandenburg learned, Saxony didn't.

I knew a messerschmitt would play the Brandenburg/Prussia card.

[Neil]

How can anyone deny the enormous positive influence of Prussia on Germany?

[Camerus]

I found the Christopher Clarke book unreadable, in spite of several attempts.

Far more focused and well-written (though less focused on Prussia and covering a shorter time period) is Martin Kitchen's "A History of Modern Germany:  1800 - 2000."

[Ideologue]

My middle school curriculum:

Egypt
Greece
Rome
Charlemagne
Holy Roman Empire (Otto the Great, Barbarossa etc.)
Crusades
Hansa
Reformation
Age of Discoveries
Thirty Years War
Founding of Prussia
French Revolution/Napoleon
Prussian Reforms (Hardenberg/Stein)
1848
Industrial Revolution
Founding of Germany
Bismarck's politics and reforms
Colonies/Imperialism
...

Lol oops ran out of time kids!

[Martinus]

It's cute when Germans think they're northern or non-decadent.

Or when they consider their neighbours to be inferior and uncivilized.

[Martinus]

How can anyone deny the enormous positive influence of Prussia on Germany?

Ideas (including national ideas) have best before date. They usually are a good influence at the time, but then they get rotten and all kinds of slime, mold and bacteria corrupt them. Same could be said about the Catholic Church - for a while it has an enormous positive influence on Europe.

[syk]

It's cute when Germans think they're northern or non-decadent.

Or when they consider their neighbours to be inferior and uncivilized.

We consider our countrymen inferior and uncivilized. Asia begins at the Elbe. 

[Valmy]

How can anyone deny the enormous positive influence of Prussia on Germany?

West Germany is better.  I suspect due to French influences

[HVC]

How can anyone deny the enormous positive influence of Prussia on Germany?

West Germany is better.  I suspect due to French influences

east Germany was Russian administered for a bit. That may,perhaps, have something to do with it

[Viking]

Sweden taught Prussia that they needed a military.

Eh, no, that would be Lithuania and Poland and all their easily conquerable land. Sweden probably taught Brandenburg and Saxony that they needed militaries. Brandenburg learned, Saxony didn't.

I knew a messerschmitt would play the Brandenburg/Prussia card.

Do not call me a cutler. ffs a swede is calling me a fucking knife maker

[Valmy]

east Germany was Russian administered for a bit. That may,perhaps, have something to do with it

I mean historically not just recently

[Neil]

How can anyone deny the enormous positive influence of Prussia on Germany?

West Germany is better.  I suspect due to French influences

Not at all.  Besides, the French influenced all of Germany pretty thoroughly.  It's hard to remember when you look at the French today, but once upon a time they were a cultural colossus, influencing all the civilized peoples of the world.  Unfortunately, they twisted themselves up when their civilization finally collapsed in 1870, and have become less and less as the years drag on.

[garbon]

I found the Christopher Clarke book unreadable, in spite of several attempts.

I have to admit that I wasn't really a fan either and am not sure if I finished it.