What are/will be the defining characteristics of the 20th Century in Retrospect?

[Valmy]

One thing you are forgetting is how very appealing the Nazis are as villians. In those 18th century wars, there is little to memorably tell the antagonists apart - sure the Sun King often acted like a would-be Hitler, particularly towards the Hugenots, but he did not have the Nazi's sense of deliberate menace. I'm willing to bet Nazis as stock villians will persist for centuries. 

Sometimes I wonder how Louis thought about his Grandfather being one of them before he said a mass for Paris.

Anyway that is a good point.  The cultural use of the Nazis as a stock villian, being both fantastically evil and stylish at the same time, wil probably last for a really long time.  It seems hard to believe anybody will come along who fit that role so perfectly.

[Sheilbh]

One thing you are forgetting is how very appealing the Nazis are as villians. In those 18th century wars, there is little to memorably tell the antagonists apart - sure the Sun King often acted like a would-be Hitler, particularly towards the Hugenots, but he did not have the Nazi's sense of deliberate menace. I'm willing to bet Nazis as stock villians will persist for centuries. 

Also the 20th century has huge mass media cultural records of historical events - I can't think of any comparison in previous eras.   If the Jacobeans had film I'm pretty sure we'd have a stronger impression of insidious Jesuits undermining the Commonweal.

So one other reason the Nazis will be remembered is because of how important they've become in our culture.  Just think of the number of films that include the Nazis, or people inspired by them.  That record is, I think, the first imprint of the Western memory.

Also I think the question's silly.  There's almost never a global answer for this sort of question (one exception I can think of is the Mongols and the Black Death).  It's a bit like the BBC's current series on the history of the world

[Valmy]

Wait, what?  You sorta lost on the first sentence.  I was under the impression that the political ideas of both Revolutions predated the revolutions themselves.

I thought we were talking about memory here. 

And Hell, in the US we have a hard time agreeing what the American Revolution was actually about.

And yeah right I must have missed that debate last 4th of July.

[crazy canuck]

We don't remember the 12th century as the age of windmills.  We remember it as as the age of Crusades.

We do not remember the Great Northern War, the War of Spanish Succession, the zillions of other horrible things that happened in the 18th century.  We remember the Enlightenment and all the technological and political changes that followed.  Because they actually impact us.

One thing you are forgetting is how very appealing the Nazis are as villians.

Yeah but the Indiana Jones movies wont have much relevance in 120 years.

[Malthus]

Yeah but the Indiana Jones movies wont have much relevance in 120 years.

I'm willing to bet there will still be a shitload of historical fiction featuring Nazis in the foreseeable future. They make the perfect fodder - totally evil, and wierd with it; plus, stylish uniforms.

Look at how much coverage the goddam Knights Templar gets these days in popular fiction. And they weren't nearly as freaky as the Nazis. 

[alfred russel]

Advances in medical science, nutrition, the "Green Revolution" in farming, etc., I would assume saved more lives than died in the wars and purges of the 20th. Also, everyday life got considerably less violent for most people. Hence, simutaneous disasters and progress.

But were the disasters even that bad? Sure there were high numbers because populations were higher, but was WWI/WWII worse for Germany than the 30 years war? Were they worse for Europe than the Napoleonic Wars? War became mechanized in a way it hadn't before, but I'm not certain that the experience of war became quantifably worse on a per capita basis. It also became less common.

I'll give you that Nazis as the stock villians will probably last for the forseeable future.

[crazy canuck]

Look at how much coverage the goddam Knights Templar gets these days in popular fiction. And they weren't nearly as freaky as the Nazis. 

Meh, the templars were a fad at best that has already run its course.  Hitler screwed up the world for less than a decade.  He might be an answer on a history test in the future but chances are there will be a more recent global atrocity to keep people's attention between then and now.

[Malthus]

Advances in medical science, nutrition, the "Green Revolution" in farming, etc., I would assume saved more lives than died in the wars and purges of the 20th. Also, everyday life got considerably less violent for most people. Hence, simutaneous disasters and progress.

But were the disasters even that bad? Sure there were high numbers because populations were higher, but was WWI/WWII worse for Germany than the 30 years war? Were they worse for Europe than the Napoleonic Wars? War became mechanized in a way it hadn't before, but I'm not certain that the experience of war became quantifably worse on a per capita basis. It also became less common.

I'll give you that Nazis as the stock villians will probably last for the forseeable future.

Depends on how you measure "worse".

Certainly, WW2 ended with large parts of eastern Europe essentially ethnically cleansed of Germans - that's pretty significant; I don't recall (for example) the Napoleonic Wars having that effect anywhere. But OTOH the 30 years war resulted in demographic collapse in Germany.

In absolute numbers, the world wars etc. surely killed more people. And the experience of totalitarianism was probably more complete than even in the French Revolution, due to technological and organizational advances.

[Valmy]

And the experience of totalitarianism was probably more complete than even in the French Revolution, due to technological and organizational advances.

I am just going to presume you are talking about evil autocratic Kings and Tsars here.

[Malthus]

Look at how much coverage the goddam Knights Templar gets these days in popular fiction. And they weren't nearly as freaky as the Nazis. 

Meh, the templars were a fad at best that has already run its course.  Hitler screwed up the world for less than a decade.  He might be an answer on a history test in the future but chances are there will be a more recent global atrocity to keep people's attention between then and now.

It's already been almost 70 years - we are more than 1/3 of the total time from the fall of the Nazis to your 120 years in the future from now. No lessening of interest in the Nazis yet.

[crazy canuck]

Certainly, WW2 ended with large parts of eastern Europe essentially ethnically cleansed of Germans - that's pretty significant;

I am not sure to whom that would be signficant in 2012 never mind 2132.

I don't recall (for example) the Napoleonic Wars having that effect anywhere. But OTOH the 30 years war resulted in demographic collapse in Germany.

Other than history buffs, who would care about such a thing?

In absolute numbers, the world wars etc. surely killed more people. And the experience of totalitarianism was probably more complete than even in the French Revolution, due to technological and organizational advances.

Nobody is arguing it didnt have an impact on the generation that experienced it or in the couple of generations that followed it.  But it strikes me that the points you are raising wont necessarily resonate 100 years on.  Hell I have had staff at this office that didnt understand a reference to the Wall coming down....

[alfred russel]

Depends on how you measure "worse".

Certainly, WW2 ended with large parts of eastern Europe essentially ethnically cleansed of Germans - that's pretty significant; I don't recall (for example) the Napoleonic Wars having that effect anywhere. But OTOH the 30 years war resulted in demographic collapse in Germany.

In absolute numbers, the world wars etc. surely killed more people. And the experience of totalitarianism was probably more complete than even in the French Revolution, due to technological and organizational advances.

In terms of raw numbers, of course the 20th century set a high bar because there were more people. That is why I was discussing per capita rather than just raw numbers.

The ethnic cleansing in Europe was a major factor in WWII, but are we forgetting that where we live was ethnically cleansed too?  The question of the experience of totalitarianism is an interesting one...certainly technology gave the state tools to exert control, but then larger populations also gave people a degree of freedom through anonymity as well. The average individual arguably had more economic and personal freedom under Stalin than when tied to the land through serfdom and with behavior monitored through the local priest in a village.

[crazy canuck]

It's already been almost 70 years - we are more than 1/3 of the total time from the fall of the Nazis to your 120 years in the future from now. No lessening of interest in the Nazis yet.

I think you are wrong about that.  I see many fewer cultural references to WWII than before.  When you and I were growing up WWII was a theme in many movies and TV shows.  Now it barely registers.

Once the last of the WWII vets dies we will probably hear about WWII about as much as we hear about WWI - ie not that often.  Muslim Jihadists have taken over from Nazis as the bad guys of choice for popular culture.  Those of us who can have a heated debate about WWII are a dying breed.

[Razgovory]

Wait, what?  You sorta lost on the first sentence.  I was under the impression that the political ideas of both Revolutions predated the revolutions themselves.

I thought we were talking about memory here. 

And Hell, in the US we have a hard time agreeing what the American Revolution was actually about.

And yeah right I must have missed that debate last 4th of July.

Perhaps you did miss the stuff were people claimed the founders wanted the country to be a Christian nation.  Of course that is wrong, but a lot of people believe it.

[Razgovory]

We don't remember the 12th century as the age of windmills.  We remember it as as the age of Crusades.

We do not remember the Great Northern War, the War of Spanish Succession, the zillions of other horrible things that happened in the 18th century.  We remember the Enlightenment and all the technological and political changes that followed.  Because they actually impact us.

One thing you are forgetting is how very appealing the Nazis are as villians.

Yeah but the Indiana Jones movies wont have much relevance in 120 years.

Eh, the three Musketeers is fairly well remembered.