The China Thread

[The Minsky Moment]

The nine dash line is very common on the Mainland.  Failure to show the line is unpatriotic.

No doubt, but in the rest of the world it is considered to be an affront to international law, including the LOS Convention that the PRC signed.

[Sheilbh]

The latest Dreamworks movie (co-produced with a Shanghai production company) also does this:


It has now been pulled in Vietnam.

[Syt]

The silliest thing about the line is that it runs basically to the shore of sovereign nations.

[Josquius]

It's kind of like in Russia it's illegal to show a map that doesn't have Crimea as part of Russia.

Crimea is at least big enough to be visible on a world map.

[grumbler]

The silliest thing about the line is that it runs basically to the shore of sovereign nations.

That's the purpose of the line. 

[Sheilbh]

It's kind of like in Russia it's illegal to show a map that doesn't have Crimea as part of Russia.

Crimea is at least big enough to be visible on a world map.

That's the silliest thimg.

[DGuller]

This is one of those case where having some freedom of speech puts you in a less free situation than if you didn't have it.  If the US had a law against private individuals/corporations conducting diplomacy by recognizing claims on contested lands, then they'd be protected from China's bullying.  Technically they'd have their speech limited by the US itself, but in practice this kind of limitation would pose less harm to them than being essentially subject to Chinese freedom of speech laws.

[celedhring]

I used to think that exposing China to liberal western culture would on the long (LONG) run ease a transition to more liberal values, but now it seems we're importing their cuntishness because of how dependant companies are on Chinese money, and the fact western countries don't control speech while China does.

[dps]

This is one of those case where having some freedom of speech puts you in a less free situation than if you didn’t have it.  If the US had a law against private individuals/corporations conducting diplomacy by recognizing claims on contested lands, then they’d be protected from China’s bullying.  Technically they’d have their speech limited by the US itself, but in practice this kind of limitation would pose less harm to them than being essentially subject to Chinese freedom of speech laws.

That's an incredibly stupid idea.  You know what would protect US companies from Chinese bullying?  Less greed.

[viper37]

The latest Dreamworks movie (co-produced with a Shanghai production company) also does this:


It has now been pulled in Vietnam.

Is that Abominable?  It seems like it was co-produced with the Chinese office of tourism and approved by the Ministry of Propaganda...

[DGuller]

This is one of those case where having some freedom of speech puts you in a less free situation than if you didn't have it.  If the US had a law against private individuals/corporations conducting diplomacy by recognizing claims on contested lands, then they'd be protected from China's bullying.  Technically they'd have their speech limited by the US itself, but in practice this kind of limitation would pose less harm to them than being essentially subject to Chinese freedom of speech laws.

That's an incredibly stupid idea.  You know what would protect US companies from Chinese bullying?  Less greed.

Yes, that is definitely a practical solution in a capitalist economy: just ask the companies nicely to not maximize their profits.

You're a smart man, smarter than me.  You know calling ideas "incredibly stupid" without elaborating doesn't give people the right idea of your intelligence, especially when you immediately follow it up by saying something not fully thought out.  It would be a better idea to not do that.

[Eddie Teach]

If men were angels, we wouldn't need laws.

[dps]

This is one of those case where having some freedom of speech puts you in a less free situation than if you didn’t have it.  If the US had a law against private individuals/corporations conducting diplomacy by recognizing claims on contested lands, then they’d be protected from China’s bullying.  Technically they’d have their speech limited by the US itself, but in practice this kind of limitation would pose less harm to them than being essentially subject to Chinese freedom of speech laws.

That's an incredibly stupid idea.  You know what would protect US companies from Chinese bullying?  Less greed.

Yes, that is definitely a practical solution in a capitalist economy: just ask the companies nicely to not maximize their profits.

You’re a smart man, smarter than me.  You know calling ideas “incredibly stupid” without elaborating doesn’t give people the right idea of your intelligence, especially when you immediately follow it up by saying something not fully thought out.  It would be a better idea to not do that.

You seem to misunderstand my point.  The incredibly stupid part is thinking that you can somehow increase freedom by taking freedom away.  Of course people and businesses that do business with China are going to be vulnerable to being bullied by the Chinese--but they have the freedom to decide how to respond to that bullying.  And that's appropriate.  Heck, a private citizen who doesn't have any business dealings with China is free to express agreement with the PRC's policies and territorial claims if they wish;  another private citizen shouldn't lose that right just because they run a company that does happen to do business with China.

[Razgovory]

If men were angels, we wouldn't need laws.

I was thinking of that the other day.  A question popped in my head.  Why would heaven need a king?

[Syt]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50093028

Abominable: A DreamWorks movie, a map, and a huge regional row

Malaysian censors have ordered a scene to be cut from DreamWorks film Abominable before it is screened there - because of a brief glimpse of a map.

It is the third South East Asian country to take offence at the scene in the film, a Chinese co-production.

The contentious map shows the "nine-dash line", which China uses to show its claims in the South China Sea.

Parts of the sea and various island groups are claimed by five other Asian countries, as well as China.

Vietnam has already pulled the movie - while Philippine politicians are calling for a DreamWorks boycott.

It might be merely a backdrop in an animated movie - but it shines a spotlight on one of the world's hottest territorial disputes.

What is in the scene?
Abominable is an animated children's movie which actually has nothing to do with the South China Sea.

It's about a Chinese girl from Shanghai who discovers a yeti on her roof, strikes up a friendship with him, and - against all odds - manages to take him back to Mount Everest.

The girl, Yi, has a makeshift shed on the roof of the high-rise where she lives. In that shed, there's a big map of East Asia on the wall, with pictures and notes pinned to it.

And it shows the South China Sea - with a series of lines marking what's known as China's nine-dash line.

What is the nine-dash line?
The South China Sea is a strategically important region, rich in potential natural resources and fishing grounds, and lying between several influential countries.

China says it has always controlled a large chunk of this territory. The nine-dash line carves out by far the largest portion - leaving only a small coastal strip to each of the other claimants.

In 1947, China issued a map detailing its claims, and insists history backs up its claims.

The other claimants beg to differ.

Vietnam also has historic maps showing its claims, while the Philippines invokes its proximity to some of the islands, which have long been populated by Filipinos.

While Taiwan's claim mirrors that of China (and China considers Taiwan to be part of China anyway), Malaysia and Brunei insist parts of the sea fall within their economic exclusion zones as defined by United Nations laws.

The Philippines have sought international arbitration - and a UN tribunal in 2016 backed Manila, saying China had violated the Philippines' sovereign rights.

Beijing, though, boycotted the proceedings and the ruling hasn't had any consequences.

China's rapidly growing influence in the region has the other claimants torn between taking a stance - or bowing to Beijing's economic might.

Why was it included in the film?

It's hard to say, as it doesn't actually play a role in the movie.

But Abominable the first co-production between US company DreamWorks and China's Pearl Studio production firm.

Within China, the sea is routinely shown with the nine-dash line. So for the Chinese side of the co-production, it's simply an accurate and normal map.

Movie goers in Vietnam, though, were quick to accuse China of inserting the map to gradually make its claims less and less controversial on the global stage.

In fact, Beijing doesn't merely claim the territory: it runs naval patrols in the area and, for years, has been building military outposts on the disputed islands.

In some cases, small rocky reefs have turned into fully fledged military runways.

Over the past few years, China has become more insistent on territorial questions.

It has, for instance, been increasingly strict in policing how foreign firms describe Hong Kong - which is part of China but has a special status - or Taiwan, which is self-ruled but which Beijing sees as a province of the mainland that has broken away.

This has led to officials and outraged Chinese social media users going after Western companies that use "wrong" maps.

Just this week, Christian Dior apologised to China for using a map of China without Taiwan.

What have Malaysia and other countries said?

"The film has been given approval for screening in Malaysia," the Malaysian film board chairman Mohamad Zamberi Abdul Aziz told news agency Reuters.

"Under the condition that the controversial map is removed from the film."

Vietnamese movie-goers were the first to notice the nine-dash line - and officials swiftly ordered the film to be pulled.

Next was the Philippines, where public and politicians were equally upset. Foreign Minister Teddy Locsin on Twitter called for a boycott and speculated about cutting the map out of the movie.

The movie has been showing in the US since last month, and the map scene has largely gone unnoticed.

Yet the US is also frequently at loggerheads with Beijing over the South China Sea.

The US Navy routinely carries out what it calls "freedom of navigation" acts. Its ships sail through what the US calls international waters - only for China to accuse it of provocation and interference in regional matters.