The China Thread

[Monoriu]

Hypothesis: when the photo op was planned a military guy thought it was funny/a big giant middle finger (or Japanese equivalent) to use plane 731. PM sits down in it without noticing or giving it much thought.

I am willing to believe this, though I won't exclude the possibility that the PM did it on purpose. 

[Berkut]

Hypothesis: when the photo op was planned a military guy thought it was funny/a big giant middle finger (or Japanese equivalent) to use plane 731. PM sits down in it without noticing or giving it much thought.

I am willing to believe this, though I won't exclude the possibility that the PM did it on purpose. 

Did WHAT on purpose?

What would be the point?

[Agelastus]

There's no fucking way that the number on this jet is a coincidence. How can you defend this scumbag Tyr? I understand he's managed the economy better than any Japanese PM in 20 years, but he's revisionist of the worst sort.

You've been in Korea too long if you're starting to think silly things like this.

Excerpts from two comments from an English language website -

"All T-4s are given a registration number 600-800."

"Not to mention that T-4 number 731 is the lead aircraft of the Blue Impulse aerobatic team* and that team is stationed in Tohoku on a base heavily damaged by the 2011 tsunami. Abe's address to the JSDF forces on that day focused on Tsunami rescue and recovery efforts."

If there was any deeper reason for him sitting in the plane then that's it; it was the lead plane of the aerobatics team at the time. Equally likely is that, as has also been suggested, it was simply the most conveniently placed plane when the base commander learned that the PM wanted a photo-op.


*Or, to be precise, it was at the time - the full ID code of the plane is 46-5731 and at the time would have had a big 1 painted on the tailfin.

[Monoriu]

Hypothesis: when the photo op was planned a military guy thought it was funny/a big giant middle finger (or Japanese equivalent) to use plane 731. PM sits down in it without noticing or giving it much thought.

I am willing to believe this, though I won't exclude the possibility that the PM did it on purpose. 

Did WHAT on purpose?

What would be the point?

The same reason he went to that shrine.  To please his voters, and to show that he do as he pleases.

[Berkut]

Hypothesis: when the photo op was planned a military guy thought it was funny/a big giant middle finger (or Japanese equivalent) to use plane 731. PM sits down in it without noticing or giving it much thought.

I am willing to believe this, though I won't exclude the possibility that the PM did it on purpose. 

Did WHAT on purpose?

What would be the point?

The same reason he went to that shrine.  To please his voters, and to show that he do as he pleases.

So you think a bunch of his voters think that Unit 731 is way cool? So much so that he had a airplane specially painted and registered so he could sit in it and show off how much he thinks human vivisection is awesome?


That is not at all "the same as" visiting a shrine, which would be to show that he is willing to honor those who died ifghting for Japan, even if others think that is inappropriate considering they died fighting in a war of aggression. That "makes sense", if at least from the standpoint of you can see why he would think that is either politically useful or even personally important.


Nobody in Japan is sitting around claiming that Unit 731 ought to be memorialized, not even the most ardent of nationalists. They may very well be in denial about it, which is just as bad, but you don't deny the existence of something by slapping its designation on airplanes. That would be like a holocaust denier sitting around in a car with a "Auschwitz was awesome" bumper sticker.


Again, the idea that this is something other than an unfortunate coincidence simply does not make any sense.

[Monoriu]

So you think a bunch of his voters think that Unit 731 is way cool? So much so that he had a airplane specially painted and registered so he could sit in it and show off how much he thinks human vivisection is awesome?


That is not at all "the same as" visiting a shrine, which would be to show that he is willing to honor those who died ifghting for Japan, even if others think that is inappropriate considering they died fighting in a war of aggression. That "makes sense", if at least from the standpoint of you can see why he would think that is either politically useful or even personally important.


Nobody in Japan is sitting around claiming that Unit 731 ought to be memorialized, not even the most ardent of nationalists. They may very well be in denial about it, which is just as bad, but you don't deny the existence of something by slapping its designation on airplanes. That would be like a holocaust denier sitting around in a car with a "Auschwitz was awesome" bumper sticker.


Again, the idea that this is something other than an unfortunate coincidence simply does not make any sense.

If the Japanese leadership behaves like the Germans usually do, I am perfectly willing to accept that this is a coincidence.  If Angela Merkel appears in a vehicle with nazi symbols painted on it, I will believe that it is a prank and she is the victim.  Or it is a photoshop job.

But alas, the Japanese political leadership's behaviour in recent years is consistent with the hypothesis that this is a deliberate attempt to piss off Japan's neighbours. 

Anyway, how I think is not important.  I believe this photograph is being circulated among Chinese internet users as we speak, and I have reason to believe that they won't think it is a coincidence either. 

I just saw an official statement from the Chinese foreign ministry.  They say no Chinese leader will speak to this Japanese PM, ever.  He can forget going to China.  Not because of this photograph, but because of the shrine visit.  Unless he apologises, which we all know will never happen. 

[Neil]

This is why there can never be real understanding and peace between Japan and China.  Mono isn't usually a big 'rah-rah' nationalist guy, but when it comes to finding slights and conspiracies in every action the Japanese take, he's practically a Russian or an Arab.  The idea that Japanese voters have a soft spot for the old medical warfare team?  Utterly ridiculous.

As for Tim, he just loves jumping to conclusions without thinking anyways.  This sort of thing is no surprise from him.

[Berkut]

This is why there can never be real understanding and peace between Japan and China.  Mono isn't usually a big 'rah-rah' nationalist guy, but when it comes to finding slights and conspiracies in every action the Japanese take, he's practically a Russian or an Arab.  The idea that Japanese voters have a soft spot for the old medical warfare team?  Utterly ridiculous.

Yeah, and his response makes that pretty clear - it doesn't even matter to him whether it was a coincidence or not, nor does it matter to other Chinese. If you WANT to be offended, then of course you will be very happy to assume the very worst about everything, even if you rationally know it makes no sense at all. *Especailly* if those who ARE rational about it dismiss the explanation as unimportant - Mono doesn't even CARE if it makes sense or not!

[Monoriu]

I decided a long time ago that I would no longer allow myself to be worked up over these incidents.  It is their shrine and their mouths.  There really is no point trying to stop them.  They just make themselves look bad with their revisionist antics. 

For the record, I don't think the Japanese voters have a soft spot for unit 731.  I do think, however, that they seem to have a soft spot for leaders who dare to do anything, especially when it comes to defiance of Japan's neighbours. 

[Razgovory]

Yeah, I'm not seeing that on purpose.  I had heard of the unit, but thought it fairly obscure (While heinous they weren't particularly useful, and they were rather small).  I imagine that there are many regimental numbers that signify military units that committed atrocities in China.  Besides I was under the impression that the Japanese were in denial of what they did (it goes toward their narrative of a victim), if that's so, why display the numbers of a unit known to have committed atrocities?  I don't see this as malice or stupidity, just coincidence.  I thought at first it might represent a date, something that would have more resonance.

[Neil]

I just realized something!  In high school Obama was #23 on the basketball team!  He must be honouring the 23rd Division, parts of which carried out the My Lai massacre!  Appalling!

[Eddie Teach]

Did he: want to be like Mike? Err, he's probably older. 

[The Brain]

I just realized something!  In high school Obama was #23 on the basketball team!  He must be honouring the 23rd Division, parts of which carried out the My Lai massacre!  Appalling!

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

They just make themselves look bad with their revisionist antics. 

could have been worse. They could be claiming all the seas up to the Phillipines

[Camerus]

Context is key, and because the Japanese are such dicks generally about their WW2 past (including this PM) that's what makes what is likely just a coincidence into a story with the potential to be believed.  And nor can it just be ascribed to the brainwashed Chinese overreacting, since they arent the only ones who feel that way, unfortunately.

In short, if you have a bad track record of something, people are less likely to give you the benefit of the doubt.