The China Thread

[Monoriu]

The shrine issue is an interesting one. I used to think it was an example of japan refusing to admit guilt, worshipping war criminals and all the other usual stuff one hears about it.
I did some research though... And a pm going there actually makes a fair bit of sense. It's a shrine for all those who died for japan, which yes, includes several war criminals... But if those war criminals were removed then it would be akin to saying they didn't die for japan and japan doesn't admit any guilt over their crimes.
It's a bit of a no win situation for japan really.

I think Japan can simply do what Germany does to get out of this "no win" situation. 

[Josquius]

I think Japan can simply do what Germany does to get out of this "no win" situation. 

That's not an option for Japan. They're very big on continuity, how old their country is and all that. Maybe during the American occupation the continuity could hav been firmly broken but that ship has sailed.

[Monoriu]

That's not an option for Japan. They're very big on continuity, how old their country is and all that. Maybe during the American occupation the continuity could hav been firmly broken but that ship has sailed.

That excuse is lame.  If they really want to change something, I'm sure they can find a way.  They just don't want to. 

[Admiral Yi]

Very lame.  They can't apologize because their country is too old?  Seriously?

[jimmy olsen]

I thought there was a specific theological argument that prevented them. That the souls of those enshrined at the shrine merge into a big soul blob and the individual souls can no longer be discerned. Thus you can't just pay your respects to the non war criminals, it's all or nothing.

[Monoriu]

I thought there was a specific theological argument that prevented them. That the souls of those enshrined at the shrine merge into a big soul blob and the individual souls can no longer be discerned. Thus you can't just pay your respects to the non war criminals, it's all or nothing.

Come on, you really believe that?  A theological argument determined government policy?  A theological argument is more important than things like national interests?  It is always the other way round - that national interests and government policy determine the theological arguments.  If they are determined to, say, remove the major war criminal's ashes from that shrine, they sure can come up with a newly discovered theological argument to justify the action. 

[jimmy olsen]

Japan isn't China, the monks can tell the government to fuck off.

[Josquius]

Yep. Some of the more controversial figures in the shrine were secretly included by the head priest. Actually after they were included the Emperor stopped visiting because he personally disapproved.

That excuse is lame.  If they really want to change something, I'm sure they can find a way.  They just don't want to. 

You're not understanding the issue here. Its not a case of Japan deciding to do something that pisses off China with the other option being to not piss off China.
Yasukuni shrine is intended for everyone who died for Japan. Whether or not the shrine should be allowed to include war criminals (it is a private organisation) and whether important figures should visit has actually been a controversial issue in Japan.
Given the other options and the deed being already done I support including the war criminals. As things stand the shrine doesn't discriminate, it includes the best and the worst of people who died for Japan. To pick and choose who to include stinks of white washing history.

Very lame.  They can't apologize because their country is too old?  Seriously?

Huh? Where did you get that from? Apologies have nothing to do with the shrine issue.

Its not so much that Japan is old but that it has continuity that is an issue. With Germany you've quite clear lines between different periods, e.g. Weimar, the third reich, the Federal Republic. In Japan things aren't seen so distinctly, Japan has always been Japan, for better or worse. This shrine has been running since the 19th century and it survived through the war.

[Monoriu]

Japan isn't China, the monks can tell the government to fuck off.

I can believe that they have real difficulty removing the ashes of, say, Tojo from the shrine.  I can't believe somebody forced their PM to visit the shrine. 

[Admiral Yi]

Huh? Where did you get that from? Apologies have nothing to do with the shrine issue.

My bad.

[Neil]

Very lame.  They can't apologize because their country is too old?  Seriously?

They already apologized.  It would be unwise to apologize too often, as otherwise your enemies would think you weak and cowardly, like the Germans are.

[Neil]

Japan isn't China, the monks can tell the government to fuck off.

I can believe that they have real difficulty removing the ashes of, say, Tojo from the shrine.  I can't believe somebody forced their PM to visit the shrine.

Why wouldn't he visit a shrine for everyone killed in the war?

[Admiral Yi]

They already apologized.  It would be unwise to apologize too often, as otherwise your enemies would think you weak and cowardly, like the Germans are.

The issue is with the quality, not the quantity.

[Eddie Teach]

They already apologized.  It would be unwise to apologize too often, as otherwise your enemies would think you weak and cowardly, like the Germans are.

Modern Japan is weak and cowardly, just like every Western nation.

[Capetan Mihali]

Neil's showing his true otaku colors in this thread.