India and Russia to sign defence deal worth $35 billion for Sukhoi T-50

[jimmy olsen]

After all the problems the F-35 has had, I can't blame them for choosing something else.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-08-19/india/33272261_1_5th-gen-swing-role-fighter-biggest-ever-defence

India and Russia going to sign biggest-ever defence deal worth $ 35 billion
Rajat Pandit, TNN Aug 19, 2012, 03.51AM IST

NEW DELHI: India's quest for a futuristic stealth fifth-generation fighter, which will see the country spend around $35 billion over the next 20 years in its biggest-ever defence project, has zoomed into the decisive phase now.

India and Russia are getting all set to ink the full and final design or R&D phase contract for the 5th Gen fighter by this year-end or early-2013, say sources. It will again underline India's firm rejection of the US offer of its Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) or the F-35 'Lightning-II'.

Ahead of the R&D contract, under which India wants to induct over 200 stealth fighters from 2022 onwards, a senior team of Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) engineers and IAF experts is going to Russia within a fortnight to ensure that the "full documentation and other work" of the earlier preliminary design contract (PDC) has been completed.

During his visit to Moscow last week, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne reviewed the performance of the 5th Gen fighter, called Sukhoi T-50.

While the Indian fighter will primarily be based on the T-50, it will be tweaked to IAF requirements.

India had inked the $295 million PDC with Russia in December, 2010. The R&D contract on the anvil is pegged at $11 billion, with India and Russia chipping in with $5.5 billion each.

"The three Russian T-50 prototypes have flown around 180 sorties till now. HAL's Ozar facility at Nashik will get three prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019...they will be flown by IAF test pilots," said a source.

"Russia has already given the draft R&D contract to us. It will include the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. So, India will have scientists and test pilots based both in Russia and Ozar during the R&D phase up to 2019. HAL will subsequently begin manufacturing the fighters," he added.

Interestingly, after first specifying the requirement for at least 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat of these 5th Gen fighters, India is veering around to the view that it will go in for only single-cockpit jets now.

"Both F-35 and T-50 are single-seaters. A second cockpit will compromise the stealth capabilities by at least 15% apart from adding to the weight and reducing fuel capacity. Moreover, R&D costs could go up by another $2 billion for the twin-seater," he said.

IAF is confident the swing-role fighter will meet its future operational needs.

As a critical interim measure and confronted with a declining number of fighter squadrons, IAF also wants the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters to be sealed within this fiscal.

[The Minsky Moment]

After all the problems the F-35 has had, I can't blame them for choosing something else.

Can you explain the logic of this further?

If a government is concerned about "problems" with an aircraft, why would they choose a aircraft at an even earlier stage of development, whose preliminary test program has already suffered significant delays?

[derspiess]

Their funeral.

[Neil]

To go with the F-35 is a mistake, but to choose Russian vapourware is lunacy.

[Siege]

The F-35 is not really a "5th Generation" jet fighter, since it lacks supercruise.
It is not clear to me weather the T-50 have supercruise or not, but this could be the reason the indians chosed the SU T-50 over the F-35.

All stealth programs are very secretive and is hard to tell what the actual capabilities of the jets are, but having some 5th Gen features do not equal being an actual 5th Gen.

If we had offered the F-22 to India they might have come with us, but if the F-22 is as unique as I suspect, as the only supercruise full stealth fighter in the world, then it is definitively wiser to kee the F-22 closer to home.

[The Minsky Moment]

If the capabilities of the T-50 are unclear, it is because it still a demonstration program, nothing more.

The reason India signed this deal is simple: technology transfer.  they would never get the equivalent from the Americans.  India's up front financial commitment is a lot less than $35 billion; even if T-50 remains vaporware, they still can just pocket the technology and know-how and use it in their own domestic program.

[Neil]

If the capabilities of the T-50 are unclear, it is because it still a demonstration program, nothing more.

The reason India signed this deal is simple: technology transfer.  they would never get the equivalent from the Americans.  India's up front financial commitment is a lot less than $35 billion; even if T-50 remains vaporware, they still can just pocket the technology and know-how and use it in their own domestic program.

I see.  So the point isn't to get an effective aircraft, but to drag HAL into the 21st century.

[The Minsky Moment]

I see.  So the point isn't to get an effective aircraft, but to drag HAL into the 21st century.

In the meantime they have their shiny new Rafales, which are cheap and GEAP.

[Siege]

If the capabilities of the T-50 are unclear, it is because it still a demonstration program, nothing more.

The reason India signed this deal is simple: technology transfer.  they would never get the equivalent from the Americans.  India's up front financial commitment is a lot less than $35 billion; even if T-50 remains vaporware, they still can just pocket the technology and know-how and use it in their own domestic program.

So, are you saying they wont get the technolgy if they buy the F-35?
I'm pretty sure Israel got the technology for the F-15 when that deal went through, even though all electronics were israeli made already.

[The Minsky Moment]

So, are you saying they wont get the technolgy if they buy the F-35?
I'm pretty sure Israel got the technology for the F-15 when that deal went through, even though all electronics were israeli made already.

I'm no expert on these kinds of deals but my understanding is that on US sales the degree of tech transfer varies by partner.  Trusted partners like the UK get more access than say the Pakistani Air Force.  (on f-35 I believe the Brits are the only "level-1" partner).  The Israelis usually fall more in the former category although on the F-35 they are on a lower participant tier.  Only limited access to core technologies was on offer to India with respect to the F-35.

[Siege]

The Russian Defense Ministry defines fifth generation as including "stealth technology, supersonic cruising speed, highly-integrated avionics, electronics and fire-control systems".

I don't think "supersonic cruising speed" is the same than supercruise, which the ability to engage the enemy while flying supersonic.
The whole russian definition is very vague and doens't even mention the "highly integrated computer systems capable of networking with other elements within the theatre of war to achieve an advantage in situational awareness."

[Siege]

Whoa, I might be wrong with the definition of supercruise.

"Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of an aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently and without the use of afterburners (reheat)."

No mention of the ability to engage the enemy while supersonic, which I understood as the definition of supercruise.

[Neil]

Whoa, I might be wrong with the definition of supercruise.

"Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of an aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently and without the use of afterburners (reheat)."

No mention of the ability to engage the enemy while supersonic, which I understood as the definition of supercruise.

Engaging while supersonic is old-school.  They were doing that sort of thing in the Cold War.

[Siege]

Whoa, I might be wrong with the definition of supercruise.

"Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of an aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently and without the use of afterburners (reheat)."

No mention of the ability to engage the enemy while supersonic, which I understood as the definition of supercruise.

Engaging while supersonic is old-school.  They were doing that sort of thing in the Cold War.

You sure? I thought they had to slow down to subsonic to engage, and that the F-22 was to first to engage while supersonic.

[Neil]

Whoa, I might be wrong with the definition of supercruise.

"Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of an aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently and without the use of afterburners (reheat)."

No mention of the ability to engage the enemy while supersonic, which I understood as the definition of supercruise.

Engaging while supersonic is old-school.  They were doing that sort of thing in the Cold War.

You sure? I thought they had to slow down to subsonic to engage, and that the F-22 was to first to engage while supersonic.

Pretty sure that the old supersonic interceptors were built to fire missiles while supersonic.  In fact, I remember reading something about an old MiG-25 doing exactly that with the big old AA-6 bomber-killers.