Where do atheists get their morals from?

[FunkMonk]

Got my morality from a box of Cracker Jacks and a couple fortune cookies. It's worked out pretty well so far. How about you Viking?









Oh.

[Martinus]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that those ideas came to us via Christianity first and foremost. Having the Enlightenment doesn't change that. And I'm saying that as a secularist agnostic.

That's only because Christianity has been the dominant ideology/religion in our culture for the last 1500 years. But if a different religion/ideology replaced it, the outcome would have been similar (or, in many cases, probably better, as in addition to its fair share of humanistic values, Christianity brought a lot of immoral bullshit with it, too) - so this cannot be used as a proof of Christianity's exceptionalism, as some people here are using it.

The argument is like saying we should be grateful for Coca Cola, as without it we would have died of dehydration.

[grumbler]

Is conscience and remorse a learned behavior?

Good question.  Bad grammar.

[Martinus]

Perhaps if Hitchens was less concerned about religion poisoning anything and more concerned with tobacco poisoning, him he might still be alive.

You mentioned "memes" as a source of morality.  Perhaps you'd like to show us the proof that memes actually exist?

Proselytizing religions are memes. Perhaps you'd like to show us some proof that you understand the word?

I asked first.  Can you give evidence that memes exist?  I wouldn't be able to understand something that doesn't exist now would I?

Q.E.D.

[Razgovory]

Perhaps if Hitchens was less concerned about religion poisoning anything and more concerned with tobacco poisoning, him he might still be alive.

You mentioned "memes" as a source of morality.  Perhaps you'd like to show us the proof that memes actually exist?

Proselytizing religions are memes. Perhaps you'd like to show us some proof that you understand the word?

I asked first.  Can you give evidence that memes exist?  I wouldn't be able to understand something that doesn't exist now would I?

An example of an existing meme is sufficient proof for the existence of memes.

Uh no. That's tautological.

[Razgovory]

So if I find one religion that doesn't preach compassion then you'll concede your point?

I'll concede the point when you find a successful religion that preaches anti-compassion to in-group members.

Define "in-group" and "successful".

[Barrister]

So if I find one religion that doesn't preach compassion then you'll concede your point?

I'll concede the point when you find a successful religion that preaches anti-compassion to in-group members.

As much as I do not wish to engage in this particular diatribe from Viking, I do wish to point out that one of the central teachings of Christianity was that it taught compassion to out-of-group members.  See the Parable of the Good Samaritan.

[Viking]

I always feel strange in these threads.  On one hand I feel the need to defend my culture and my religion from Viking's ferocious attacks...on the other I do not really claim or believe the things he is trying to disprove. 

This confuses me as well. You agree with me but keep trying to prove us wrong. Then again you know how I feel when the stalin/hitler was an atheist trope springs up. My attacks are not ferocious, they are analytical and to the point. This is one of the reasons why all atheists sound strident when they are analytical and to the point. When I explain where I get my morals from I am also asserting that you don't get your morals from the bible. Apparently this makes religious people feel apprehensive.

While the Ancient Romans and Greeks did some pretty messed up shit I think they are as much the ancestors of our moral system as Christianity...since in so many ways Christianity carries along alot of their values.  So I would guess the place Atheists get their morals from is the same place Christians got alot of theirs: from Ancient Philosophy.

Again, my main point here is that Ancient Philosophy is an expression of our universal morality. Australian aboriginies and Amerindians had very similar ideas about in-group ethics and morality as we do even today. The "what" questions have the same answers while the "how" questions have different ones. Australian aboriginies diverged from the rest of the planet 40,000 years ago at least, the Amerindians about 20,000 years ago. These people were isolated for 37,500 and 17,500 years respectively before the Axial age and invention of Ancient Philosophy, yet the still share our basic ideas on how to behave. They knew that lying, stealing and murder was wrong; they knew that covetousness was detrimental to group solidarity; they knew that empathy for the feelings and emotions of others was a requirement for cooperating and getting along with them.

Good people will do good things regardless of what their religion is.

[Razgovory]

A thread that starts with the moronic idea that morals are at least partially "genetic" and builds from there.  Love it!

Also love the debate about whether memes exist.  Next debate:  does "gravity" exist?

*pops popcorn*

Actually our next debtate is whether you contribute anything to this board. 

SIGNS POINT TO NO

[Viking]

Yes, Christianity "stole" those ideas from all the "untrue" religions for the simple reason that this is what people believed anyways.

x 1000

Yes and the West "stole" Algebra from the Arabs

no, man does not have a "sensus mathematicus" as they do a sense of moral right and wrong. Not all societies invent algebra, all societies "invent" morality.

[Viking]

The same we we learn everything, by observing the microcosm of society that immediately surrounds us and applying the learnt response. In this case that would be being rewarded for behaving in a way considered "good" by our nearest and dearest and assuming the same applied to greater society. As we grow we realise the "reward" may not come immediately, or at all in some interactions,  but on the whole what goes around comes around. "Do unto others" and all that. Oh wait, that's the Bible

I'm sure that Confusius (~500 BC) and Rabbi Hillel (~100 BC) got that idea from Jesus as well? iirc it's in the Upanishads as well. If anything christian morality is claiming that it invented our evolved innate morality.

So did Seneca and many stoics.

I felt that I should trim the list of people who came up with the golden rule on their own as we are limited by space and Seneca was a contemporary of Jesus and I want to focus on those who preceeded Jesus by at least multiple generations.

[Sheilbh]

This is one of the reasons why all atheists sound strident when they are analytical and to the point.

Analytical, to the point pub bores.

[Barrister]

My attacks are not ferocious, they are analytical and to the point.

[Razgovory]

It's sort of cute that Viking thinks his insults and bigotry is someone how analytical.

[Valmy]

Speaking of religion in general I think it can fill people with a connection to others and perhaps a desire to do good things.  Obviously that is not a universal response to spiritual experiences but it is a pretty common one.  But even in that case one would need a definition of what the good is.  And therefore most religions try to define that, but they obviously are getting that from something because really that is an intellectual exercise.  To determine what actions would benefit people or what at least would not harm them.

Is that not one of the most basic questions of philosophy?  What is the good?  I do not know if those are really natural things since the answers are not always the most intuitive.