Calling Languish parents: Why did you decide to have children?

[DGuller]

So yes, let's play this game. I continuously hope you and your family die of cancer. Hopefully your wife and your kids before you so you can live through it.

  I bet canuck can't match that one.

[Grey Fox]

God am I glad this ignore list bullshit is gone.

[DGuller]

God am I glad this ignore list bullshit is gone.

No shit.  Neil, despite being a senile old codger, knows what he's doing

[Eddie Teach]

Bah, I can see Grey Fox's posts again! Why hast God forsaken me? 

[Grey Fox]

Bah, I can see Grey Fox's posts again! Why hast God forsaken me? 

Because you deserved it.

Kneel before him.

[The Minsky Moment]

An act of creation affects the created being. An act of non-creation does not affect the created being. Is this so hard to understand?

It's hard to understand because it's not true.

An act of creation does not "affect" the created being.  Rather it is the precondition for the created being to come into being and thus be capable of affectation in the first place.  As such, it is a positive event for that being, not a negative one, unless one assumes that life is inherently valueless.

Acts of non creation OTOH do affect already created beings all the time.

[The Brain]

An act of creation does not "affect" the created being.  ...  As such, it is a positive event for that being,

[Razgovory]

God am I glad this ignore list bullshit is gone.

When did this happen?

[dps]

I disagree - what about a risk of hereditary diseases. Or parents having bad personality traits...  ...All such people should seriously consider if they should have children.

A great many people who have a high risk of passing hereditary diseases on to their children do make the decision to forgo having kids--and in many cases where they have kids anyway, it's because they didn't find out that they carried the genes for the disease until after they already had kids.  And as for having bad personality traits--well, by that standard, no one would ever have children--we all have a least a few bad traits.

[Barrister]

I guess ultimately this is where the whole lot of defensiveness in this thread comes from - because I am asking people who have children to consider if they indeed should have children (whether at all or at the particular moment of their lives) - because of a whole plethora of things, such as financial conditions, stability of their marriages, their personalities or hereditary diseases etc. It is much easier to abrogate that responsibility by claiming that "everyone should have children" or that it is an instinct - but I argue this is not the case and self-aware humans should decide that for themselves consciously and honestly.

I'm pretty much re-iterating what Malthus said, but the situations where a child would be better off simply not being born at all are pretty limited.

The thing about raising kids is you can never be a perfect parent, and that kids don't need perfection.  To go through your entire list:

-Children are born to parents of limited means all the time, and turn out great.  The situations where parents are so impoverished that it lears to long-lasting suffering for the child are extremely limited.

-Stability of marriages.  Lots of children born to less than stable relationships, or single parents, who turn out fine.  For the relationship to be so unstable, and so violent, that the child is better off not being born is extremely limited.

-Personalities - lots of different kinds of personalities make wonderful parents.  From easygoing to hardnosed, hoghbrow to lowbrow, all can make good parents.  If someone is a psycopath unable to empathize with others they should probably not have children - but the personality types who absolutely should not have children are pretty limited.

-Hereditary diseases.  I've mentioend my wife's cousin, whose mother passed away from Huntington's recently.  It's a directly inheritable disease, so he has a 50/50 chance of getting Huntington's - and if he gets it his two kids have a 50/50 chance of developing it.  I would strongly disagree he'd be better off not having been born, and the same for his kids.

[Grey Fox]

God am I glad this ignore list bullshit is gone.

When did this happen?

Yesterday or this morning.

[Phillip V]

-Children are born to parents of limited means all the time, and turn out great.  The situations where parents are so impoverished that it lears to long-lasting suffering for the child are extremely limited.

-Stability of marriages.  Lots of children born to less than stable relationships, or single parents, who turn out fine.  For the relationship to be so unstable, and so violent, that the child is better off not being born is extremely limited.

citation needed

[Barrister]

-Children are born to parents of limited means all the time, and turn out great.  The situations where parents are so impoverished that it lears to long-lasting suffering for the child are extremely limited.

-Stability of marriages.  Lots of children born to less than stable relationships, or single parents, who turn out fine.  For the relationship to be so unstable, and so violent, that the child is better off not being born is extremely limited.

citation needed

Barrister, July 4, 2012

Really just personal experience.  Take my brother's high school best friend.  Raised by a welfare single mom, who then passed away after her son graduated high school.  I'm pretty sure Marti would say he'd be better off not having been born, but he's leading a very productive life with a stable job and a loving wife (and who has been pretty much adopted into our wider family, which is why I know how well he is doing).

[Phillip V]

-Children are born to parents of limited means all the time, and turn out great.  The situations where parents are so impoverished that it lears to long-lasting suffering for the child are extremely limited.

-Stability of marriages.  Lots of children born to less than stable relationships, or single parents, who turn out fine.  For the relationship to be so unstable, and so violent, that the child is better off not being born is extremely limited.

citation needed

Barrister, July 4, 2012

Really just personal experience.  Take my brother's high school best friend.  Raised by a welfare single mom, who then passed away after her son graduated high school.  I'm pretty sure Marti would say he'd be better off not having been born, but he's leading a very productive life with a stable job and a loving wife (and who has been pretty much adopted into our wider family, which is why I know how well he is doing).

Researchers have consistently found that children born outside marriage face elevated risks of falling into poverty, failing in school or suffering emotional and behavioral problems: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/us/for-women-under-30-most-births-occur-outside-marriage.html

I have also read that the upward mobility rate (not to mention incarceration, graduation rates, etc.) of kids born into poverty is also significant retarded. Sure, we like to remember a few exceptions from our personal networks, but the reality is not so uplifting for children in troubled/single-parent households.

[Razgovory]

What do you suppose the risks are of being born into an Eastern European dictatorship?