German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault

[garbon]

One could argue that fixing a cleft lip soon after birth is unnecessary as well, and merely conforming to our civilizations narrow concept of beauty and/or normalcy.

I thought it was established that beauty is fairly universal, since beauty indicators (youth, unblemished skin, bilateral symmetry, hip/waist proportions and such) usually imply greater potential for healthier offspring.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here seeing as how people pick love interests all the time that don't find your standards of beauty.  After all, attraction in humans is about more than a biological imperative.

[Malthus]

Since "die wende" Jews have been returning to Germany in quite large numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Germany

"some health benefits" - all these "benefits" boil not to not suffering all the various maladies related to the foreskin - mostly infection, inflamation and transmission. Basically if you don't have a foreskin your foreskin cannot get infected. The same applies to hands, legs, penii and noses.

There is no health benefit you can get from circumcision (apart from treatment of phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin)) that you cannot also get from keeping it clean and practicing safe sex.

So, you are saying there are no benefits from circumcision - except for a bunch of benefits? 

Point is, on the state of medical knowledge today there is a perfectly acceptable non-religious case for circumcision. A perfect atheist may, acting rationally, choose to have the procedure performed on his or her children. Or not. The benefits are relatively minor - and so is the procedure.

This fatally undermines the notion that the decision to perform the procedure is an "assault" - unless, of course, the rationale for so classifying it is to give a sock in the eye to religious types generally (or Muslims and Jews, specifically). I'd love to see the German Court arrest a doc for performing the procedure where the rationale for performing it was to obtain the reputed health benefits.

[garbon]

what's up with garbon and Seedy being so defensive on this?
You know, nails require constant maintenance as well otherwise they get fugly, dirty, and possibly infected. Let's remove them all for health's sake!

From the looks of this thread it seems mostly uncut Euros cheering out a do-nothing decision by Germany.  As to your Marti analogy:

[Malthus]

what's up with garbon and Seedy being so defensive on this?
You know, nails require constant maintenance as well otherwise they get fugly, dirty, and possibly infected. Let's remove them all for health's sake!

What's up with supporting a silly, unnecessary and probably meaningless intrusion of the state?

Lets prosecute cosmetic pediatric orthodontists for "assault" while we are at it.

[Tamas]

what's up with garbon and Seedy being so defensive on this?
You know, nails require constant maintenance as well otherwise they get fugly, dirty, and possibly infected. Let's remove them all for health's sake!

What's up with supporting a silly, unnecessary and probably meaningless intrusion of the state?

Lets prosecute cosmetic pediatric orthodontists for "assault" while we are at it.

it is about cutting off a piece of an infant child. Which child will still be free to have it chopped off once he reaches adulthood.

[Tamas]

what's up with garbon and Seedy being so defensive on this?
You know, nails require constant maintenance as well otherwise they get fugly, dirty, and possibly infected. Let's remove them all for health's sake!

From the looks of this thread it seems mostly uncut Euros cheering out a do-nothing decision by Germany.  As to your Marti analogy:

its a very good analogy. It is an unnecessary piece of your body which can go seriously wrong unless maintained properly.

[Iormlund]

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here seeing as how people pick love interests all the time that don't find your standards of beauty.

Sure, we have to settle. That's yet another biological imperative.

After all, attraction in humans is about more than a biological imperative.

No it's not.

[Malthus]

what's up with garbon and Seedy being so defensive on this?
You know, nails require constant maintenance as well otherwise they get fugly, dirty, and possibly infected. Let's remove them all for health's sake!

What's up with supporting a silly, unnecessary and probably meaningless intrusion of the state?

Lets prosecute cosmetic pediatric orthodontists for "assault" while we are at it.

it is about cutting off a piece of an infant child. Which child will still be free to have it chopped off once he reaches adulthood.

And pediatric cosmetic orthodontics inflicts torture on a child. I should know - I had it done. Why not wait until I was 18 to have it done, so I could make up my own mind whether funny-looking (but fully functional) teeth were better than medical tortures needed to make them look nice?

The rationale for both is pretty obvious - having the procedures done as an adult is not the same thing as having them done as infants or children, as the parts in question grow and change. Infant circumcision is a nothing of a nothing. Not so adult circumcision. Childhood is better for othodontia, because the teeth are still growing. Relatively mild intervention is needed as a kid, major surgery as an adult.

[CountDeMoney]

what's up with garbon and Seedy being so defensive on this?

Foreskins are a filthy Old-World trait, like substandard nutrition and mopeds.  Fireman's Helmets are where it's at for an advanced civilization.

[Valmy]

The same applies to hands, legs, penii and noses.

Yeah but what are the benefits of keeping your foreskin?  I can think of medical reasons to want your nose, penis, legs, and hands around so those are not really comparable.  Isn't this a bit like giving your infant an Appendectomy upon birth?  I mean hardly a necessary procedure but not exactly the same as amputating a nose.

[CountDeMoney]

what's up with garbon and Seedy being so defensive on this?
You know, nails require constant maintenance as well otherwise they get fugly, dirty, and possibly infected. Let's remove them all for health's sake!

From the looks of this thread it seems mostly uncut Euros cheering out a do-nothing decision by Germany.  As to your Marti analogy:

No shit.

And Tamas, when my manicurist is willing to give me a nice knob polishing as part of my cuticle work, then we can make the comparisons.

[Iormlund]

what's up with garbon and Seedy being so defensive on this?

...are a filthy Old-World trait, like substandard nutrition ...

Rubens would have run out of canvas space in modern America.

[garbon]

No it's not.

Pretty sure I'm not looking for a partner who will raise me healthy children.

[Valmy]

Rubens would have run out of canvas space in modern America.

Spain is right up there with us: http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2010/10/16/obesity-public-enemy-number-one/

At least we can fall back on our freedom to inflict brutal bodily assault on our infants.  The Spanish will soon have nothing to console them in their obesity.

[Ideologue]

what's up with garbon and Seedy being so defensive on this?
You know, nails require constant maintenance as well otherwise they get fugly, dirty, and possibly infected. Let's remove them all for health's sake!

From the looks of this thread it seems mostly uncut Euros cheering out a do-nothing decision by Germany.

Wrong.