It's morning in Wisconsin

[DGuller]

Wait Yi said as far as touches.  Per Seedster's comments - it is like the main contributing factor.

Maybe, maybe not.  I certainly have enough of lack of faith in the Republicans, who are the main champions of the voucher idea, to not dismiss the notion that they see adverse selection as a feature, not a bug.  Get all the good kids out of public schools, to avoid contaminating them with the inner city trash, and what happens happens with public schools.

[Berkut]

Isn't the issue that some student demographics tend to drag down overall school performance, rather than terrible teachers and administrators?

I mean, I know that that's a discussion that's pretty landmine filled and all, but if there's something to that - if the social circumstances of the student body makes it harder for them to achieve good results compared to other student bodies - it seems that shuffling those students around (or depriving them of resources because their school is under performing) would do little to address the quality of education.

It's not a guaranteed outcome of course, but it seems to me that one of the risks of such a system is that the students who need the least resources to excel will get the most resources showered on them, while the weakest students in need of the most support will get the least resources. I'm not saying it's inevitable, but I think it's a real risk that any solution should at least attempt to address.

Well, duh, Jake.  It's been happening for decades, this will just accelerate the problem exponentially.

Because of the way our public education systems are funded, and ever since San Antonio v Rodriquez decided that an education is not a fundamental right in America, the voucher concept is a fantastic Libertarian-fuck-em-if-they're-poor-niggers approach to maintaining institutionalized inequality in certain areas and demographics. 

Sure, a poor kid in an inner city cesspool neighborhood can get a voucher and go to another school out in the 'burbs 28 miles away--but how he gets there is his problem, lulz.  But at least he can, right?  A rather convenient way of Pilate hand-washing.  A voucher gets you to rationalize away racism, and dance around that nasty Brown v Board of Ed.

Blaming teachers because they have pensions just happens to be a way cool bonus.

Oh look, more race baiting. What a shock.

[Admiral Yi]

Just use the Swedish system. Even die-hard Socialists like Americans should find it in their hearts to accept it.

I suspect one difference between the US and Swedish system is that the US does not pay the full cost of tuition, it's a set amount.  So Ms. Crackhead is going to keep her 8 kids in POS Public High Shool regardless of vouchers and enrollment rules.

[DGuller]

But you skim right over the objectionable part of unions.  Once a union is certified all employees must belong (or if allowed to opt out is still forced to pay the same union dues, and still forced to be bound to the collective agreement).  And once a union is certified the employer can only negotiate with that union.  What kind of freedom to contract is there when you can only contract with one single party, and when it's an item that is essential to your business?

WTF What kind of crap country has this system?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

[The Brain]

But you skim right over the objectionable part of unions.  Once a union is certified all employees must belong (or if allowed to opt out is still forced to pay the same union dues, and still forced to be bound to the collective agreement).  And once a union is certified the employer can only negotiate with that union.  What kind of freedom to contract is there when you can only contract with one single party, and when it's an item that is essential to your business?

WTF What kind of crap country has this system?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

[CountDeMoney]

Oh look, more race baiting. What a shock.

Somebody has to carry the banner of the Civil Rights Movement around here.  The minority fag won't do it.

[Berkut]

Yeah, pretty much-- by continuing to fund failing schools

But what if the schools are failing because the student body is more problematic rather than because the administrators and teachers suck? Then you end up punishing challenged students and rewarding advantaged students.

Seems to me that you're running the risk of basically giving up on challenged students and increasing the chances that they remain challenged as adults, producing more challenged kids of their own.

Two points here:

1. The voucher system will not solve the problem of demographics and cultural problems with education. At least, I don't think it is inteded to do that.

2. I would say the current system has failed to address your second point, so I don't see why changing it should be a problem. It's not like right now the educational system solves that problem, so why should the inability of a different system to solve that problem be held against it, as long as it is designed to solve another problem (that in many cases public schools are not performing well even when adjusted for their demographic challenges).

[Admiral Yi]

Maybe, maybe not.  I certainly have enough of lack of faith in the Republicans, who are the main champions of the voucher idea, to not dismiss the notion that they see adverse selection as a feature, not a bug.  Get all the good kids out of public schools, to avoid contaminating them with the inner city trash, and what happens happens with public schools.

You're wisely backing off from racism accusation, but not far enough.  The good kids and the trash are both minorities.

[Valmy]

2. I would say the current system has failed to address your second point, so I don't see why changing it should be a problem. It's not like right now the educational system solves that problem, so why should the inability of a different system to solve that problem be held against it, as long as it is designed to solve another problem (that in many cases public schools are not performing well even when adjusted for their demographic challenges).

Well that is the thing.  The voucher system may not be a magical silver bullet but it seems crazy not to try it.  What we are doing is certainly never going to work.

[The Brain]

Just use the Swedish system. Even die-hard Socialists like Americans should find it in their hearts to accept it.

I suspect one difference between the US and Swedish system is that the US does not pay the full cost of tuition, it's a set amount.  So Ms. Crackhead is going to keep her 8 kids in POS Public High Shool regardless of vouchers and enrollment rules.

Wouldn't US private operators be able to run schools with the same budget that public schools have?

[CountDeMoney]

Just use the Swedish system. Even die-hard Socialists like Americans should find it in their hearts to accept it.

I suspect one difference between the US and Swedish system is that the US does not pay the full cost of tuition, it's a set amount.  So Ms. Crackhead is going to keep her 8 kids in POS Public High Shool regardless of vouchers and enrollment rules.

Wouldn't US private operators be able to run schools with the same budget that public schools have?

Why should they?  Private schools can charge whatever they like;  public schools rely on local property taxes and redirected state funding.

[Berkut]

2. I would say the current system has failed to address your second point, so I don't see why changing it should be a problem. It's not like right now the educational system solves that problem, so why should the inability of a different system to solve that problem be held against it, as long as it is designed to solve another problem (that in many cases public schools are not performing well even when adjusted for their demographic challenges).

Well that is the thing.  The voucher system may not be a magical silver bullet but it seems crazy not to try it.  What we are doing is certainly never going to work.

I actually think the best argument against vochers is this:

The current system is not nearly so broken as people make it out to be, and in fact in most cases where people complain about "failed schools" the failure is not on the part of the schools at all, but on the community, society, and cultures that created the disadvantaged groups that habitually fail when it comes to education - whether that be inner city black kids or rural America white trash."

[Admiral Yi]

Wouldn't US private operators be able to run schools with the same budget that public schools have?

Probably.  But as things stand vouchers are a fraction of the amount spent on public school kids. 

[alfred russel]

Yeah, pretty much-- by continuing to fund failing schools

But what if the schools are failing because the student body is more problematic rather than because the administrators and teachers suck? Then you end up punishing challenged students and rewarding advantaged students.

Seems to me that you're running the risk of basically giving up on challenged students and increasing the chances that they remain challenged as adults, producing more challenged kids of their own.

Another aspect that is overlooked/not known is that currently disadvantaged schools often receive more money per student than the suburban schools that do well. Which imo makes a lot of sense from a public policy point of view. Cutting every kid a voucher in the same amount, is another way to move funding out of the urban schools and back into the suburbs.

[The Brain]

Wouldn't US private operators be able to run schools with the same budget that public schools have?

Probably.  But as things stand vouchers are a fraction of the amount spent on public school kids.

OK so the US could use the Swedish system.