UEFA Euro 2012 Poland-Ukraine: Germans Glowing with Anticipation

[Sheilbh]

Torres was a parody of himself flubbing that chance.  I still have hopes for Balotelli.  Italy impressed more than I expected. Fun game though.

[Josephus]

Croatia v. Ireland is pretty good too. Though that last goal was clearly offside.

[Sheilbh]

Jelavic

[Josephus]

I take that back. On reflection, that second goal was clearly NOT offside, since the ball was played back by Irish defender.

[Martinus]

Ireland is getting slaughtered.

[Warspite]

[Duque de Bragança]

The last player in Germany who famously had bananas thrown at him was Oliver Kahn, though.

a.k.a the missing link between ape and man. QED 

[Martinus]

See? That's the point. I have a somewhat elongated skull, so back at school some people made fun of me, comparing me to a horse - including making horse-like noises etc. While I certainly wasn't amused, I wouldn't consider it anything particularly objectionable, like serious bullying or anything (I didn't cry myself to sleep or consider killing myself over it*). Hell, even at work I got a nickname "bison" for the same reason (which I found out only after a while - again, it's not my fault I look like this and I'm not particularly fond of being reminded of this, but I laughed). And I probably look less like a horse/bison than your average black athlete looks like an ape (hint: athletes are not very smart and usually look the part). So what gives?

Edit: Let's have another question: why is it more acceptable to compare a fat white person to a walrus than a fat black person to a gorilla?

*Incidentally, if you commit suicide as a result of people making fun of you at school, your mental health is the culprit, not the people making fun of you.

[Tamas]

Apes are second-class cousins of humans and a lot of people who still bother with insults like that actually mean it.

While it is pretty safe to assume that nobody actually thinks you are a half-horse subhuman. (altough it's Poland, so who knows).

That said, neither should be banned by law (as Sheilbh pointed out, FIFA is a private organization and is free to install whatever rules at its tournaments),  but neither should be accepted by society either.

[Martinus]

Apes are second-class cousins of humans and a lot of people who still bother with insults like that actually mean it.

While it is pretty safe to assume that nobody actually thinks you are a half-horse subhuman. (altough it's Poland, so who knows).

That said, neither should be banned by law (as Sheilbh pointed out, FIFA is a private organization and is free to install whatever rules at its tournaments),  but neither should be accepted by society either.

It's UEFA not FIFA and I think the controversy is about the Brits and the Dutch complaining that UEFA is not actually doing enough. So the argument should go the other way.

[Tamas]

BTW Marty, your seemingly sudden change from "you said gay? YOU HOMOPHOBIC SHIT I HOPE YOU GET CANCER AND YOUR FAMILY DIES BURNED ALIVE IN A CAR ACCIDENT" to "people say stuff. I don't care, I just chill" is positively frightening.

[Sheilbh]

It's UEFA not FIFA and I think the controversy is about the Brits and the Dutch complaining that UEFA is not actually doing enough. So the argument should go the other way.

The Dutch captain said it was an issue and they had to go and train at the other end of the pitch.  UEFA and then some of the Dutch media said that actually it was just a few people making monkey noises.  Then video came out which suggests it's a bit more than a few people:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/video/2012/jun/08/euro-2012-racism-dutch-training-video

UEFA has every right as a private organisation to take whatever steps they think necessary to stop racism.  The teams have to train publicly and UEFA have to provide them with decent training grounds for that which should include not having to move because you're being racially abused and not being abused in general during the training. 

You're right the English and Dutch have made an issue of this (though it's also been an issue in the Czech-Russia game and Balotelli has said he'll walk off if he's abused). But I think in part they made this an issue early in the game to make it clear to UEFA that they won't tolerate much and will walk off or expect the ref to stop a game (as they're meant to) if there's serious racism.  Given that the first UEFA instinct was to cover it up as a few isolated people that was probably for the best.

Edit: Let's have another question: why is it more acceptable to compare a fat white person to a walrus than a fat black person to a gorilla?

Well because there's no racial slur and racism is socially unacceptable, fat jokes aren't.  Racism isn't unacceptable because it's bullying - that's a problem for different reasons - it's unacceptable because it's racist.  So even if you take Suarez's defence at face value, he may have meant 'negro' as a term of endearment but that doesn't make it okay.

[PDH]

   Mart still fails at analogies.

[Martinus]

Well because there's no racial slur and racism is socially unacceptable, fat jokes aren't.  Racism isn't unacceptable because it's bullying - that's a problem for different reasons - it's unacceptable because it's racist.  So even if you take Suarez's defence at face value, he may have meant 'negro' as a term of endearment but that doesn't make it okay.

See, I think this summarises where the problem lies. I can see how how post-colonial/post-slavery societies can be much more sensitive to racism (actual or perceived) but don't you allow that there might be societies where "racist" jokes are as acceptable (or as unacceptable) as fat jokes? After all, UK and US aversion to racism is largely informed by historical systemic oppression of non-white people - something that, for obvious reasons, never happened in countries like Poland. Why would you then demand that such societies conform automatically to your view of this? I mean, it is conceivable that there may be teams from even more diverse cultures, who may find some other tolerated behaviour from the sport fans to be unacceptable. And conversely, for Poles, the stuff about Smolensk flag and paper airplanes is more offensive than making monkey sounds. Why would you usurp a right to decide what is and what isn't acceptable at a game which features players and sport fans from different cultures.

You are using British/Western standard and considering it universal. That is not the case. Deal with it.

[Martinus]

Incidentally, stuff like this is the great example why words like racism or homophobia, that get thrown around a lot, lose their potency and become a caricature.

Being weirded out, amused or disgusted by the "other" is a primitive and crude but "natural" reaction a lot of people who are not accustomed to experiencing diversity have. A bunch of white Poles making fun of a black guy, or a bunch of straight guys being disgusted by two guys kissing may be an example of bad manners but it is not "racism" or "homophobia", because the latter for me should involve an element of "evil" (such as physical violence, or say, denying someone his or her rights). Again, an ugly person cannot stop being ugly the same way a black person cannot stop being black and a gay person cannot stop being gay - and when they meet people who are not accustomed to them, these people will react strangely, because we have a built in "danger" mechanism when we spot things that are different from our usual experience. This may be dumb and primitive, but as long as these people do not cause actual hurt ("stick and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me", by the way - why the fuck did we forget about this in the recent years in this silly attempt to build social harmony by making everyone shut up is beyond me) they are not evil - they are not racist, homophobic etc.