UN official: US must return control of sacred lands to Native Americans

[Barrister]

I had a young woman working for me in Tucson. College age.

She told me that her tribe would buy her a house and a truck if she married within the tribe and lived on the reservation.

I don't know what system was in place such that this incentive made financial sense to the tribe, but *something* was in place that created the desire for such an incentive.

I thought even then that whatever system encouraged an authority power to engage in that kind of "incentives" was broken. Both the existence of such perverse incentives, and the disease that must be present such that it takes that kind of incentive to maintain whatever tribal identity they were struggling to sustain via bribery.

Is it any different from what generations of Jewish parents have been doing?

Are there incentives in place by certain bands to encourage marriage within the community?  Sure (though I haven't heard of any in AB/YT).

But nobody is prohibited from marrying anyone that they wish.

[dps]

While I have to agree that the reservation system is mostly dysfunctional, I don't think that the fact that suicide is the leading cause of death among young people there is useful evidence, given that it's either 2nd or 3rd among young people in the US as a whole (motor vechicle accidents are still #1).

[Berkut]

I had a young woman working for me in Tucson. College age.

She told me that her tribe would buy her a house and a truck if she married within the tribe and lived on the reservation.

I don't know what system was in place such that this incentive made financial sense to the tribe, but *something* was in place that created the desire for such an incentive.

I thought even then that whatever system encouraged an authority power to engage in that kind of "incentives" was broken. Both the existence of such perverse incentives, and the disease that must be present such that it takes that kind of incentive to maintain whatever tribal identity they were struggling to sustain via bribery.

Is it any different from what generations of Jewish parents have been doing?

Yes, it is VERY different. Because this was not her parents making the offer, this was the tribal government.

Are there incentives in place by certain bands to encourage marriage within the community?  Sure (though I haven't heard of any in AB/YT).

But nobody is prohibited from marrying anyone that they wish.

Of course not - that doesn't mean much of anything to the point though.

[Malthus]

There are absolutely no restrictions on intermarriage.  Any children of such a mixed-marriage get Indian status.

But their children do not - if they intermarry. See above.

There are no financial incentives to live on a reserve, other than the fact the individual band will provide free housing.  But given the quality of said housing many prefer to live off-reserve.

Untrue. See above.

Approximately 50% of native people live off-reserve.

Status, or non-status?

[Berkut]

While I have to agree that the reservation system is mostly dysfunctional, I don't think that the fact that suicide is the leading cause of death among young people there is useful evidence, given that it's either 2nd or 3rd among young people in the US as a whole (motor vechicle accidents are still #1).

It is certainly useful in the context of a lot of other evidence.

Hell, the fact that it is first instead of second compared to the norm is pretty useful evidence.

[Malthus]

Is it any different from what generations of Jewish parents have been doing?

The government doesn't change your legal rights for your kids if you "marry Jewish".

[crazy canuck]

Both the existence of such perverse incentives, and the disease that must be present such that it takes that kind of incentive to maintain whatever tribal identity they were struggling to sustain via bribery.

I can think of a lot of societies, social groups and families who put financial pressure by way of both penalties and rewards to marry the right kind of person.

[crazy canuck]

Is it any different from what generations of Jewish parents have been doing?

The government doesn't change your legal rights for your kids if you "marry Jewish".

The government doesnt but the Jewish family sure does - if one wishes to compare apples with apples.

[Berkut]

Both the existence of such perverse incentives, and the disease that must be present such that it takes that kind of incentive to maintain whatever tribal identity they were struggling to sustain via bribery.

I can think of a lot of societies, social groups and families who put financial pressure by way of both penalties and rewards to marry the right kind of person.

Good for you.

Can you think of any government agencies that provide financial pressure on people to marry "the right kind of person" and fund said incentives with public money?

I can't  - at least not in the US.

[Razgovory]

Yes.  People of the opposite sex.

[crazy canuck]

Both the existence of such perverse incentives, and the disease that must be present such that it takes that kind of incentive to maintain whatever tribal identity they were struggling to sustain via bribery.

I can think of a lot of societies, social groups and families who put financial pressure by way of both penalties and rewards to marry the right kind of person.

Good for you.

Can you think of any government agencies that provide financial pressure on people to marry "the right kind of person" and fund said incentives with public money?

I can't  - at least not in the US.

You are missing the point.  You said it was evidence of a "disease" of some sort for a social group to provide incentive for someone to marry within the group.  That is nonsense.  Many social groups provide incentives and punishments for that matter if people marry outside the group. 

[dps]

While I have to agree that the reservation system is mostly dysfunctional, I don't think that the fact that suicide is the leading cause of death among young people there is useful evidence, given that it's either 2nd or 3rd among young people in the US as a whole (motor vechicle accidents are still #1).

It is certainly useful in the context of a lot of other evidence.

Hell, the fact that it is first instead of second compared to the norm is pretty useful evidence.

Well, my guess (which might well be wrong) was that kids on the reservations have less access to motor vechicles, which kept that out of the number one spot for them.

[Berkut]

Both the existence of such perverse incentives, and the disease that must be present such that it takes that kind of incentive to maintain whatever tribal identity they were struggling to sustain via bribery.

I can think of a lot of societies, social groups and families who put financial pressure by way of both penalties and rewards to marry the right kind of person.

Good for you.

Can you think of any government agencies that provide financial pressure on people to marry "the right kind of person" and fund said incentives with public money?

I can't  - at least not in the US.

You are missing the point.  You said it was evidence of a "disease" of some sort for a social group to provide incentive for someone to marry within the group.  That is nonsense.  Many social groups provide incentives and punishments for that matter if people marry outside the group. 

NO, what I said was that the fact that the *government* needed to bribe people to marry and stay on the reservation was evidence that there was a disease.

This is not a "social group", this is the actual government of these supposedly sovereign nations resorting to blatant bribery to entice people to marry within the tribe and live on the reservation.

But whatever - you won't be convinced no matter what, I get that. Everything is fine on the reservations, continue with business as usual. Except, of course, "do it better". Lets balance the budget by "eliminating government waste" while we are at it.

[Berkut]

While I have to agree that the reservation system is mostly dysfunctional, I don't think that the fact that suicide is the leading cause of death among young people there is useful evidence, given that it's either 2nd or 3rd among young people in the US as a whole (motor vechicle accidents are still #1).

It is certainly useful in the context of a lot of other evidence.

Hell, the fact that it is first instead of second compared to the norm is pretty useful evidence.

Well, my guess (which might well be wrong) was that kids on the reservations have less access to motor vechicles, which kept that out of the number one spot for them.

Could be...on the other hand, the rampant alcoholism and drug use would tend to drive up vehicular death rates as well, since that is what often drives youth vehicular fatality rates.

In any case, if your contention is accurate, then we would see that the suicide fatality rate amongst reservation youths is actually not higher than the norm, it is just that vehicular fatality rates are lower. Lets check, shall we?

First result from a google search on native american suicide rates:

http://www.wisconsinwatch.org/2010/11/21/a-tribal-tragedy-state%E2%80%99s-native-peoples-have-alarmingly-high-suicide-rates/

Despite 40 years of insight and ongoing prevention efforts, many native communities still struggle with keeping members from taking their own lives. Between 1999 and 2008, at least 86 Native Americans in Wisconsin have died by suicide — a figure that is likely lower than the actual toll, given that experts believe suicides are sometimes mislabeled as accidental overdoses, shootings and car crashes.

An analysis of Wisconsin suicide data from 1999 to 2008 by the Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism found:

    The overall suicide rate among Native Americans was 16 deaths per 100,000 people — at least 25 percent higher than Wisconsin's overall rate of about 12 deaths per 100,000.
    The suicide rate among native people was significantly higher than rates for the other ethnic and racial groups — including about 12 per 100,000 for whites, 9 for Asians, 7 for blacks, and 6 for Hispanics.
    Menominee County, dominated by the Menominee Indian Reservation with a majority Native American population, had the highest suicide rate of any Wisconsin county with nearly 30 deaths per 100,000 — two times higher than the national rate for non-Hispanic Native Americans.

Nationally, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports that suicide death rates among non-Hispanic Native Americans, such as those living in Wisconsin, have remained consistently higher than the general population over the past two decades.

[Berkut]

From the second result:

Youth Statistics
•Among American Indian/Alaska Native youth attending Bureau of Indian Affairs schools in 2001, 16% had attempted suicide in the 12 months preceding the Youth Risk Behavior Survey.2
•From 1999 to 2004, American Indian/Alaska Native males in the 15 to 24 year old age group had the highest suicide rate, 27.99 per 100,000, compared to white (17.54 per 100,000), black (12.80 per 100,000), and Asian/Pacific Islander (8.96 per 100,000) males of the same age.