Couple held at gunpoint, arrested after buying home

[DontSayBanana]

Oh yeah I have no problem with carrying....I mean half my state is carrying.  But I figured it was supposed to be for protection not performing citizen's arrests.

Like I said, imminent danger aside, leave drawing to law enforcement.

[CountDeMoney]

Having said that, this over-active attitude (call it vigilantism or whatever) rarely comes out of a vacuum.  I'd be willing to bet that this neighborhood in question had seen an increase in burglaries. is lily ass white and not used to seeing black people.

Edited for clarity. And reality.

[derspiess]

Oh yeah I have no problem with carrying....I mean half my state is carrying.  But I figured it was supposed to be for protection not performing citizen's arrests.

Leaving out some exceptions for certain circumstances, I'd generally agree with you on that.

[derspiess]

Having said that, this over-active attitude (call it vigilantism or whatever) rarely comes out of a vacuum.  I'd be willing to bet that this neighborhood in question had seen an increase in burglaries. is lily ass white and not used to seeing black people.

Edited for clarity. And reality.

Yes, Seedy.  Everything is about race and needs to be seen in black or white

[Barrister]

You ever worked with a realtor?  They're generally pretty good, but they certainly are not on call 24/7.  I've had to wait a day or two to hear back from mine.

In this case, only an issue if the realtor's a solo.  The receptionist would probably be able to verify the realtor's appointment- all they need is the sale date for corroboration to ease off of probable cause.

This was a foreclosure.  The owner still on title is either pissed off at having just lost their house (and whose contact address is probably the very house in question), or is the bank in which case GOOD LUCK getting ahold of anyone after hours.

This was a foreclosure, so do you really think the bank's going to inconvenience themselves and set closing for after-hours?  Article heavily implies (granted, it doesn't say outright) that the couple didn't waste much time in getting over to the house.

Due diligence is great - but there's only so much you can do in a short time frame.  And as I said, in this particular instance short of locating some of the paperwork of speaking with the realtor there's really no other due diligence you can do.

And our turn around for the Land Titles Office is 7-10 days.  You drop it off, but you don't get back a Certificate of Title for 7-10 days.  Lawyers have all kinds of forms and protocols to cover that problem so you still get possession that day, but registration is not immediate.  And that's on a straight-forward transaction.  A foreclosure is only going to be more complicated.

With even more of a paper trail.  In a bank sale, we've got the bank, the buyers, their mortgage provider, the realtor, almost definitely an attorney for each side, not to mention the title insurer.  You seriously expect me to believe there's no way they could have gotten a hold of any of up to six different parties that could verify the sale and date?

EDIT, Mk II: Also, where are you getting this "at night" portion of the story?  The article doesn't say anything about time of day or even what day of the week this occurred... actually, the video at the link does point out it was a Thursday.  So, so much for the weekend argument.

You're right.  The article does not say it happened at night.

I realized why I thought it did - the article says they were charged with prowling.  The charge in Canada is "Prowling At Night" - so the same action could be quite legal during the day, but becomes criminal at night.

It's rarely charged, so I've never litigated over exactly what "at night" means.  I wonder how that'd work up north when you'd get 20+ hours of daylight (or 20+ horus of darkness).

You're right that during the day there are plenty of people you could get ahold of.  But not after 5pm.  You're not going to be able to reach any lawyers, the title insurer, the mortgag cmpany, or the bank.  The only ones who do try and be aailable after hours are realtors.  But that's only by giving you their cell number.  If they don't pick up you're out of luck.  And they sure don't have after-hours answering service.

[DontSayBanana]

Fair enough.  I'll get off your back now, since we're both just guessing about the time.  You could be right, I could be right- we won't know without more details.

As an aside, I see some interesting differences between US real estate and Canadian real estate- you have a separate "Land Title Office," whereas our titles are conveyed directly by trust deeds, and they're filed directly with the county/parish clerk's office, and corroborated by records kept with the local tax assessor's office.

[Razgovory]

Having said that, this over-active attitude (call it vigilantism or whatever) rarely comes out of a vacuum.  I'd be willing to bet that this neighborhood in question had seen an increase in burglaries. is lily ass white and not used to seeing black people.

Edited for clarity. And reality.

Yes, Seedy.  Everything is about race and needs to be seen in black or white

What makes you think the neighbors have personally seen an increase in burglaries?

[derspiess]

What makes you think the neighbors have personally seen an increase in burglaries?

That's often the back story for incidents like this.

[Barrister]

Fair enough.  I'll get off your back now, since we're both just guessing about the time.  You could be right, I could be right- we won't know without more details.

As an aside, I see some interesting differences between US real estate and Canadian real estate- you have a separate "Land Title Office," whereas our titles are conveyed directly by trust deeds, and they're filed directly with the county/parish clerk's office, and corroborated by records kept with the local tax assessor's office.

Yes, we have a very nice, centralized Land Titles Office which records all interests in property (and conversely, if an interest in property is not registered it literally does not exist).  Google the Torrens system if you're curious (but if you are curious about land registration systems you need to give your head a shake).

[Razgovory]

What makes you think the neighbors have personally seen an increase in burglaries?

That's often the back story for incidents like this.

Well here's a different context:  It was Georgia and the guy was black.  Mine works better since there is no need to assume facts not in evidence.

[crazy canuck]

Up here we have a centralized Land Titles registry which is very good, but I'm not 100% sure if police have online access.  In any event if does take a few days for any new registration to actually hit the system, so if they'd bought the property that day it wouldn't be online yet.

actually the pending title change hits the system immediately - the final (which is stamped by the land title registry can take days).

But the question I have is why the police didnt just phone the realtor the check out the story?  That has got to be close to the negligence line.

[crazy canuck]

Yes, we have a very nice, centralized Land Titles Office which records all interests in property (and conversely, if an interest in property is not registered it literally does not exist).  Google the Torrens system if you're curious (but if you are curious about land registration systems you need to give your head a shake).

Not quite true.  If an interest in land is not registered it is just more difficult to prove.  Many times an equitable interest will not be registred but it can still be asserted against people who are on title but have knowledge of the equitable interest.  The really great property law exam questions are on fact patterns involving an unregistered interest in land which is conveyed buy the title holder to a third party purchaser.

Also, an unregistred holder of title may still have a duplicate certificate of title in their possession which is proof of ownership.

[Razgovory]

Apparently the Vigilantes have been arrested and charged.  http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/charges-dropped-against-couple-arrested-after-tryi/nMgQq/

Charges have been dropped against a couple who got tossed in jail after visiting their son's new house, but not before they faced gun-wielding neighbors. Now, the neighbors are the ones behind bars.

Jean and Angelica Kalonji's son closed on a Newton County home Thursday and, on the agent's advice, they went over to change the locks.

Neighbors then showed up with guns drawn.

"(I was) told to put my hands up and to get out, otherwise he shot us," Jean Kalonji said.

The Kalonjis said they were so glad when Newton County sheriff's deputies arrived to straighten things out, but the deputies took them to jail and charged them with loitering and prowling.

"For me to get out, we had to pay bond," Kalonji said.

Channel 2's Jeff Dore talked with a spokesman for the Newton County sheriff, who said they have now dropped charges. The father-son pair of neighborhood watchmen in the confrontation turned themselves in to the Sheriff's Office Monday evening. Robert, 45, and Branden Canoles, 18, were charged with false imprisonment, aggravated assault and criminal trespass.

As for the deputies who arrested innocent new residents, they were not on administrative leave at this time.

"They just spontaneously arrested him, arrested his wife, threw them in jail, made no phone calls, made no effort to verify the truthfulness of what they were saying and told the people with the guns in essence, 'Thank you for your good service,'" Kalonji family attorney Don Samuel said.

The deputies are facing an internal investigation within the Newton County Sheriff's Department.

"The case is still fluid. We're still investigating the case. And also our Office of Professional Standards, there's an internal investigation as well," Lt. Mark Mitchell of the Newton County Sheriff's Department said.

The one of the charged individuals has a neck beard.  Goddamn Hipsters.

[DGuller]

Were the gunmen Oceanian-Americans?

[Barrister]

Up here we have a centralized Land Titles registry which is very good, but I'm not 100% sure if police have online access.  In any event if does take a few days for any new registration to actually hit the system, so if they'd bought the property that day it wouldn't be online yet.

actually the pending title change hits the system immediately - the final (which is stamped by the land title registry can take days).

But the question I have is why the police didnt just phone the realtor the check out the story?  That has got to be close to the negligence line.

According to wiki (and my own memory) you guys only have a modified Torrens system, while the prairies have the full Torrens system.