Couple held at gunpoint, arrested after buying home

[DontSayBanana]

Personally, I think the neighbors should be looking at weapon assault charges.  The argument that they were being conscientious neighbors ran out when they pointed guns at the "possible burglars/squatters."

Those deputies should go bye-bye, too.  Strike 1 was not checking the tax records, strike 2 was (story doesn't say, so I'm assuming they didn't) not taking in the idiots pointing guns, and there shouldn't be a strike 3 when it's likely to end up in a lawsuit costing the city millions of dollars.

[CountDeMoney]

Personally, I think the neighbors should be looking at weapon assault charges.  The argument that they were being conscientious neighbors ran out when they pointed guns at the "possible burglars/squatters."

Those deputies should go bye-bye, too.  Strike 1 was not checking the tax records, strike 2 was (story doesn't say, so I'm assuming they didn't) not taking in the idiots pointing guns, and there shouldn't be a strike 3 when it's likely to end up in a lawsuit costing the city millions of dollars.

True dat to all points.

[Barrister]

Personally, I think the neighbors should be looking at weapon assault charges.  The argument that they were being conscientious neighbors ran out when they pointed guns at the "possible burglars/squatters."

Those deputies should go bye-bye, too.  Strike 1 was not checking the tax records, strike 2 was (story doesn't say, so I'm assuming they didn't) not taking in the idiots pointing guns, and there shouldn't be a strike 3 when it's likely to end up in a lawsuit costing the city millions of dollars.

The "guns drawn" aspect troubles me.  It would be a serious no-no in this country, but I can't possibly comment on how it's viewed in the US.

But they purchased the house that same day.  Tax records or land titles will NOT be updated that quickly.  Without a copy of some of the paperwork (whether it be the Land Transfer, the Purchase / Sale agreement, or whatever) I don't see how you don't arrest the couple.  And the neighbors, unless you have them on gun charges, are in the clear.

[CountDeMoney]

The "guns drawn" aspect troubles me.  It would be a serious no-no in this country, but I can't possibly comment on how it's viewed in the US.

We show up with people with guns, there are serious issues.

But they purchased the house that same day.  Tax records or land titles will NOT be updated that quickly.  Without a copy of some of the paperwork (whether it be the Land Transfer, the Purchase / Sale agreement, or whatever) I don't see how you don't arrest the couple.  And the neighbors, unless you have them on gun charges, are in the clear.

That's because you're a fascist monarchist.

[DontSayBanana]

The "guns drawn" aspect troubles me.  It would be a serious no-no in this country, but I can't possibly comment on how it's viewed in the US.

But they purchased the house that same day.  Tax records or land titles will NOT be updated that quickly.  Without a copy of some of the paperwork (whether it be the Land Transfer, the Purchase / Sale agreement, or whatever) I don't see how you don't arrest the couple.  And the neighbors, unless you have them on gun charges, are in the clear.

That's my thought on the neighbors.  With everybody on edge about the Trayvon Martin debacle, we should be cracking down on armed "neighborhood watch" types.  Kudos for being vigilant, but leave the gun-pulling between the violent criminals and law enforcement.

Also, the house probably still had the "for sale" sign.  Even if the buyers didn't have the documents and the system hadn't updated yet, the cops could have taken less than five minutes, called the realtor, and verified that the property had been sold that day.  Or they could have gotten the owner still on record from the tax assessor and tried to contact the actual homeowner on record to verify the couple was unauthorized to be on the property.  Seriously, Beeb.  Computer lag is no excuse for a lack of due diligence.

[MadImmortalMan]

IMO, even if you're on your own property and it's perfectly legal, I would still keep to the "don't draw unless you're gonna fire" rule.

[Tonitrus]

Personally, I think the neighbors should be looking at weapon assault charges.  The argument that they were being conscientious neighbors ran out when they pointed guns at the "possible burglars/squatters."

Those deputies should go bye-bye, too.  Strike 1 was not checking the tax records, strike 2 was (story doesn't say, so I'm assuming they didn't) not taking in the idiots pointing guns, and there shouldn't be a strike 3 when it's likely to end up in a lawsuit costing the city millions of dollars.

The "guns drawn" aspect troubles me.  It would be a serious no-no in this country, but I can't possibly comment on how it's viewed in the US.

But they purchased the house that same day.  Tax records or land titles will NOT be updated that quickly.  Without a copy of some of the paperwork (whether it be the Land Transfer, the Purchase / Sale agreement, or whatever) I don't see how you don't arrest the couple.  And the neighbors, unless you have them on gun charges, are in the clear.

I would think, as a cop, if they claimed to be the new owners, and offered to retrieve the proving documents (I assume they had them at home), why not take the time to escort them home and verify the paperwork?  It would have to take far less time to do that than to run them downtown and through booking.

[Valmy]

I can see defending your own property with weapons but is this a trend of taking your weapons off your property to do vigilante work or is it just getting reported?  I mean this is getting ridiculous and dangerous.  I do not want some asshole pointing his gun at me because he is too fucking stupid and/or uninformed to understand what he is seeing.  And it seems these people can just threaten perfectly innocent people's lives (on their own or public property it seems) with the blessing of law enforcement.

[Barrister]

The "guns drawn" aspect troubles me.  It would be a serious no-no in this country, but I can't possibly comment on how it's viewed in the US.

But they purchased the house that same day.  Tax records or land titles will NOT be updated that quickly.  Without a copy of some of the paperwork (whether it be the Land Transfer, the Purchase / Sale agreement, or whatever) I don't see how you don't arrest the couple.  And the neighbors, unless you have them on gun charges, are in the clear.

That's my thought on the neighbors.  With everybody on edge about the Trayvon Martin debacle, we should be cracking down on armed "neighborhood watch" types.  Kudos for being vigilant, but leave the gun-pulling between the violent criminals and law enforcement.

Also, the house probably still had the "for sale" sign.  Even if the buyers didn't have the documents and the system hadn't updated yet, the cops could have taken less than five minutes, called the realtor, and verified that the property had been sold that day.  Or they could have gotten the owner still on record from the tax assessor and tried to contact the actual homeowner on record to verify the couple was unauthorized to be on the property.  Seriously, Beeb.  Computer lag is no excuse for a lack of due diligence.

You ever worked with a realtor?  They're generally pretty good, but they certainly are not on call 24/7.  I've had to wait a day or two to hear back from mine.

This was a foreclosure.  The owner still on title is either pissed off at having just lost their house (and whose contact address is probably the very house in question), or is the bank in which case GOOD LUCK getting ahold of anyone after hours.

Due diligence is great - but there's only so much you can do in a short time frame.  And as I said, in this particular instance short of locating some of the paperwork of speaking with the realtor there's really no other due diligence you can do.

And our turn around for the Land Titles Office is 7-10 days.  You drop it off, but you don't get back a Certificate of Title for 7-10 days.  Lawyers have all kinds of forms and protocols to cover that problem so you still get possession that day, but registration is not immediate.  And that's on a straight-forward transaction.  A foreclosure is only going to be more complicated.

[Maximus]

Why would they be arrested though? Is there any evidence a crime has happened or is about to happen?

[Barrister]

Why would they be arrested though? Is there any evidence a crime has happened or is about to happen?

IMO the fact they are breaking into a house, at night, with no key or proof of ownership constitutes reasonable and probable grounds to arrest for break and enter.

Rememebr grounds for arrest are not the same as proof to obtain a conviction.

[Barrister]

Personally, I think the neighbors should be looking at weapon assault charges.  The argument that they were being conscientious neighbors ran out when they pointed guns at the "possible burglars/squatters."

Those deputies should go bye-bye, too.  Strike 1 was not checking the tax records, strike 2 was (story doesn't say, so I'm assuming they didn't) not taking in the idiots pointing guns, and there shouldn't be a strike 3 when it's likely to end up in a lawsuit costing the city millions of dollars.

The "guns drawn" aspect troubles me.  It would be a serious no-no in this country, but I can't possibly comment on how it's viewed in the US.

But they purchased the house that same day.  Tax records or land titles will NOT be updated that quickly.  Without a copy of some of the paperwork (whether it be the Land Transfer, the Purchase / Sale agreement, or whatever) I don't see how you don't arrest the couple.  And the neighbors, unless you have them on gun charges, are in the clear.

I would think, as a cop, if they claimed to be the new owners, and offered to retrieve the proving documents (I assume they had them at home), why not take the time to escort them home and verify the paperwork?  It would have to take far less time to do that than to run them downtown and through booking.

Two possible answers.

1. Accuseds lie.  All the time.  About stuff that's easily provable false.  I can imagine a real crook maintaining that charade, going to their home, searching all over, apologizing as to why they can't find them, they were here a minute ago...

2. Less charitably, booking them may well be someone else's problem within the police.

[DontSayBanana]

You ever worked with a realtor?  They're generally pretty good, but they certainly are not on call 24/7.  I've had to wait a day or two to hear back from mine.

In this case, only an issue if the realtor's a solo.  The receptionist would probably be able to verify the realtor's appointment- all they need is the sale date for corroboration to ease off of probable cause.

This was a foreclosure.  The owner still on title is either pissed off at having just lost their house (and whose contact address is probably the very house in question), or is the bank in which case GOOD LUCK getting ahold of anyone after hours.

This was a foreclosure, so do you really think the bank's going to inconvenience themselves and set closing for after-hours?  Article heavily implies (granted, it doesn't say outright) that the couple didn't waste much time in getting over to the house.

Due diligence is great - but there's only so much you can do in a short time frame.  And as I said, in this particular instance short of locating some of the paperwork of speaking with the realtor there's really no other due diligence you can do.

And our turn around for the Land Titles Office is 7-10 days.  You drop it off, but you don't get back a Certificate of Title for 7-10 days.  Lawyers have all kinds of forms and protocols to cover that problem so you still get possession that day, but registration is not immediate.  And that's on a straight-forward transaction.  A foreclosure is only going to be more complicated.

With even more of a paper trail.  In a bank sale, we've got the bank, the buyers, their mortgage provider, the realtor, almost definitely an attorney for each side, not to mention the title insurer.  You seriously expect me to believe there's no way they could have gotten a hold of any of up to six different parties that could verify the sale and date?

EDIT, Mk II: Also, where are you getting this "at night" portion of the story?  The article doesn't say anything about time of day or even what day of the week this occurred... actually, the video at the link does point out it was a Thursday.  So, so much for the weekend argument.

[derspiess]

I can see defending your own property with weapons but is this a trend of taking your weapons off your property to do vigilante work or is it just getting reported?  I mean this is getting ridiculous and dangerous.  I do not want some asshole pointing his gun at me because he is too fucking stupid and/or uninformed to understand what he is seeing.  And it seems these people can just threaten perfectly innocent people's lives (on their own or public property it seems) with the blessing of law enforcement.

There's a huge difference IMO between carrying (either open or concealed) and actually pointing a handgun at someone.  If you're going to draw your weapon, you had better make sure you know what the situation is. 

Having said that, this over-active attitude (call it vigilantism or whatever) rarely comes out of a vacuum.  I'd be willing to bet that this neighborhood in question had seen an increase in burglaries.

[Valmy]

There's a huge difference IMO between carrying (either open or concealed) and actually pointing a handgun at someone.  If you're going to draw your weapon, you had better make sure you know what the situation is. 

Oh yeah I have no problem with carrying....I mean half my state is carrying.  But I figured it was supposed to be for protection not performing citizen's arrests.