Trayvon Martin case: use of Stand Your Ground law or pursuit of a black teen?

[grumbler]

The problem is that unlike teachers, cops have a monopoly on violence.  Their testimonies are also a crucial part of their civil service, and often is the only piece of evidence in more minor cases, which means that the rights of citziens often hang on their word.  In light of that, I think it's not at all unreasonable to hold them to higher standard of integrity than teachers.

I don't disagree with you in theory.  Cops should be held to a higher standard.  They are hired, in essence, to be the eyes and ears of the public in places where bad guys might be trying to do the public harm.  The public hires them, in essence, to be honest about what is happening.

The public doesn't get its money's worth in this regard, but it can't.  Cops are human beings, and they are loyal to those whose loyalty they need to even stay alive, which means fellow cops.  They identify with fellow cops, and want fellow cops to be innocent in any case where innocence is possible, just as they want fellow cops to believe them innocent in any case where innocence is possible.  They'll burn fellow cops they think are genuine bad guys, but it will take a lot of evidence to convince them that the fellow cop is bad.  Cops have a sense of duty to the public, but it pales compared to the sense of duty they feel for each other.  I don't think that is avoidable except in a police department wherein the cops hate each other, and that's a worse police force than a normally-corrupt one.

I think that constant automatic video and audio monitoring (with police unable to turn off the monitors) is the only way the public is going to get their moneys' worth, and cops will be able to get away from the need to lie to cover up possible mistakes by fellow cops.

It bothers me to discover that the police apparently deliberately turned off the video camera in the tazer gun in the moments before Chamberlain was shot (apparently you hear the cop in charge order the cop with the tazer to turn off the camera just before the shots were fired).  All of the reasons that a reasonable person would imagine for such an act are ungood for the cops.

[DontSayBanana]

Howard Morgan, Black Off-Duty Cop Shot 28 Times By White Chicago Officers, Faces Up To 80 Years In Prison

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/03/howard-morgan-ex-cop-shot_n_1399834.html

28 times?  At least one of those cops had been watching too many action movies.  That's half a clip each, or at least one of them emptied his clip.

[Razgovory]

We had a case here recently where the police fired at least 24 bullets at a suspect in a trailer park.  24 bullets were found in the side of some guy's trailer.  Apparently the suspect was trying to kill himself.

[CountDeMoney]

It bothers me to discover that the police apparently deliberately turned off the video camera in the tazer gun in the moments before Chamberlain was shot (apparently you hear the cop in charge order the cop with the tazer to turn off the camera just before the shots were fired).  All of the reasons that a reasonable person would imagine for such an act are ungood for the cops.

Yeah, that case stinks to high heaven.
Unfortunately, it happened at 5am, which means the cops were interrupted from their downtime at the IHOP.  Leaving pancakes for a call will get you deader than shit.

And turning off the camera or mic on any device out in the field is a major chain of custody no-no.  That's why the duty sergeant back at HQ has the keys to the VCR lock box in the trunk for the dashboard cameras.  Patrol officers never touched the tapes from their own tour, never ever ever.  Same goes with belt mics;  you think something's wrong with your mic, you come off the street immediately.

[Darth Wagtaros]

We had a case here recently where the police fired at least 24 bullets at a suspect in a trailer park.  24 bullets were found in the side of some guy's trailer.  Apparently the suspect was trying to kill himself.

Hopefully he was shot before he succeeded.

[Admiral Yi]

What about the human trafficking thing?  You keep ignoring this one.

No I don't.  I said I've never heard of it till now.  What O'Keefe did with the human trafficking video enters as much in to the conversation about the Maryland video as MSNBC's coverage of Plamegate does to the Zimmerman 911 clip.

[Barrister]

This is the problem with police Omerta.  A cop can line up a random person on the street against a wall, execute him with a shot to the back of the head, and his colleagues on the scene would all claim that the executed guy was grabbing for the cop's gun or something.  Therefore, you can't ever trust a police account, even though I'm sure (or I sincerely hope) that the vast majority of the time, nothing fishy happened.  I can't ever recall a case of uncovered police misconduct, whether it involved killing someone or roughing the person up, that didn't include a number of false statements by cops that intended to cover it up.

You watch too many movies.

There are, in fact, actual law enforcement professionals that don't like to see their coworkers break the law.  No, really.

I missed DG's post at the time, and haven't had time to respond until now.

So DG - how many internal police investigations have you been a part of?  Have you read any academic articles?  What precisely is your opinion based on?

I have done about a half dozen opinion files on police complaints, and have talked to numerous colleagues who have run similar opinions - and even ran trials against cops.

So based on that experience... I've never seen cops fabricate evidence for their colleagues.  Not once.

Now I think Grumbles was kind of on the right path.  No group likes to tattle on their colleagues.  Lawyers are particularily bad for this IMO.  What I have seen is that when the outside investigator comes in suddenly a room full of cops had their backs turned (though even this is pretty rare).  Colleague told me of a file he was reviewing where the other cops involved declined to give a statement.  A call to the inspector tuned them up to the fact that when you are on duty and in uniform providing a statement about what happened is not optional, but rather part of your damn job.

That being said - the huge majority of complaints of police brutality are complete BS.  They're made by a person under the influence, or with a really obvious axe to grind.

I love the ideas of video and audio recordings on police officers (hey - my every word in court is being recorded, so why shouldn't theirs).  But you have to be able to turn it off.  Cops have to use the bathroom too.  But yes - if you're turning it off in the middle of something that's a problem.

[CountDeMoney]

(hey - my every word in court is being recorded, so why shouldn't theirs). 

Heh, touche'.

[Razgovory]

What about the human trafficking thing?  You keep ignoring this one.

No I don't.  I said I've never heard of it till now.  What O'Keefe did with the human trafficking video enters as much in to the conversation about the Maryland video as MSNBC's coverage of Plamegate does to the Zimmerman 911 clip.

It's on the same video!  It's all part of his montage!  He went to several offices and spliced together responses.

[derspiess]

CNN now seems to doubt Zimmerman used a racial slur, after filtering out some background noise from the tape.

[Admiral Yi]

It's on the same video!  It's all part of his montage!  He went to several offices and spliced together responses.

OK.  I still haven't seen it and can't comment on it.

[Razgovory]

It's on the same video!  It's all part of his montage!  He went to several offices and spliced together responses.

OK.  I still haven't seen it and can't comment on it.

You were able to comment on it earlier.

[CountDeMoney]

CNN now seems to doubt Zimmerman used a racial slur, after filtering out some background noise from the tape.

What, from the original 911 phone call?  Quite frankly, I didn't think that was what he said the first time I heard it.

[Admiral Yi]

You were able to comment on it earlier.

I commented on it earlier in the bellief that it was one of the "no-event" sessions (such as the one where the ACORN lady said she had killed her husband) that O'Keefe left off the released version.

Now that you've told me O'Keefe included the trafficking footage on the video he released, that raises the issue of whether that portion of the tape was edited to lead viewers to an incorrect conclusion.  I haven't seen it so I can't judge if it was or it wasn't.

[Razgovory]

That's okay.  I can wait.