Prosecutors aim new weapon at Occupy activists: lynching allegation

[Admiral Yi]

Yi, your pickpocket example is a tough one because their the pickpocket has broken the law, and thus you would be justified to arrest that person until police arrive, which necessarily involves the application of force.  So no you can't "beat someone up", but you can get physical.

But if no other crime has been committed, you can't start roughing people up to collect on a debt!

Well yeah, I don't think anyone's disputing that.  What I'm disputing is what the appropriate punishment is when someone does rough someone up to collect a debt.

[Barrister]

Yi, your pickpocket example is a tough one because their the pickpocket has broken the law, and thus you would be justified to arrest that person until police arrive, which necessarily involves the application of force.  So no you can't "beat someone up", but you can get physical.

But if no other crime has been committed, you can't start roughing people up to collect on a debt!

Well yeah, I don't think anyone's disputing that.  What I'm disputing is what the appropriate punishment is when someone does rough someone up to collect a debt.

Extortion has strong organized crime connotations.  I believe that is part of why it attracts a much more serious punishment than, say, a bar fight.

[Valmy]

All of you who are shrieking about misapplication of the lynching law-- did you have the same reaction when the racketeering law was used to stop abortion clinic protests?

Yep.  That stuff just drives me nuts.  We give the government special powers to handle specific problems and then it gets used for a bunch of other areas it was never intended.  Sort of like how anti-terrorism stuff is used to fight the drug war.  Just pisses me off.  It is fundamentally dishonest, if legislators and law enforcement believe they should have expanded powers in all areas then that is what they need to pass and enforce.

[PDH]

Yep.  That stuff just drives me nuts.  We give the government special powers to handle specific problems and then it gets used for a bunch of other areas it was never intended.  Sort of like how anti-terrorism stuff is used to fight the drug war.  Just pisses me off.  It is fundamentally dishonest, if legislators and law enforcement believe they should have expanded powers in all areas then that is what they need to pass and enforce.

The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

[Barrister]

Yep.  That stuff just drives me nuts.  We give the government special powers to handle specific problems and then it gets used for a bunch of other areas it was never intended.  Sort of like how anti-terrorism stuff is used to fight the drug war.  Just pisses me off.  It is fundamentally dishonest, if legislators and law enforcement believe they should have expanded powers in all areas then that is what they need to pass and enforce.

The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

If you give law enforcement a tool, I don't see how they can be faulted for using that tool.  If you have a problem with how any particular peice of legislation was initially justified, well, take it up with your legislators.

[Valmy]

If you give law enforcement a tool, I don't see how they can be faulted for using that tool.  If you have a problem with how any particular peice of legislation was initially justified, well, take it up with your legislators.

I look forward to my form letter response.

Sorry but I am going to fault people for how they choose to interpret the law just as much for how they decide to write it.

[dps]

Yi, your pickpocket example is a tough one because their the pickpocket has broken the law, and thus you would be justified to arrest that person until police arrive, which necessarily involves the application of force.  So no you can't "beat someone up", but you can get physical.

But if no other crime has been committed, you can't start roughing people up to collect on a debt!

Well yeah, I don't think anyone's disputing that.  What I'm disputing is what the appropriate punishment is when someone does rough someone up to collect a debt.

Extortion has strong organized crime connotations.  I believe that is part of why it attracts a much more serious punishment than, say, a bar fight.

Which is why people think that it is fundamentally intellectually dishonest to charge the guy in your example with extortion.  Or to charge the guy in the article in the OP with "lynching"--it should be faily obvious that he didn't break someone out of police custody to string 'em up from the nearest tree or lamppost, which I the connotation that "lynching" carries.  There are plenty of charges that could be brought that don't have that connotation, depending on the jurisdiction--obstruction of justice, aiding and abetting, and others (also depending on exactly what the guy actually did).

Nice strawman.  As Valmy has pointed out, protesting against an unjust arrest (someone gets pushed off the sidewalk and they get arrested) is a very proper form of "interference."  "Interfering with an arrest" is not itself a crime.  You have to use force or threaten the use of force or physical intervention.  Under this interpretation of "lynching," you do not.

From the opening post:

Under the California penal code, lynching is "taking by means of a riot of any person from the lawful custody of any peace officer," where "riot" is defined as two or more people threatening violence or disturbing the peace.

To me, it sounds like you would have to at least have an implicit threat of violence in order to convict under the California lynching law.

[Barrister]

Which is why people think that it is fundamentally intellectually dishonest to charge the guy in your example with extortion.  Or to charge the guy in the article in the OP with "lynching"--it should be faily obvious that he didn't break someone out of police custody to string 'em up from the nearest tree or lamppost, which I the connotation that "lynching" carries.  There are plenty of charges that could be brought that don't have that connotation, depending on the jurisdiction--obstruction of justice, aiding and abetting, and others (also depending on exactly what the guy actually did).

How the hell is it "intellectually dishonest" to charge extortion.  Beating someone up in order to get them to pay you money is the very definition of extortion.

From wiki:

Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offence which occurs when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person(s), entity, or institution, through coercion.

From the Criminal Code:

Every one commits extortion who, without reasonable justification or excuse and with intent to obtain anything, by threats, accusations, menaces or violence induces or attempts to induce any person, whether or not he is the person threatened, accused or menaced or to whom violence is shown, to do anything or cause anything to be done.

[Neil]

Shit like Beeb pulled was why in Walker Texas Ranger, the criminals kept going after Alex, the chick prosecutor.

Yes, I watched every Walker episode in '06. Bite me. It was either that, American Chopper or How its Made.

Should have gone with How it's Made.  Sometimes that show can be quite interesting.

[Kleves]

Free the Whitehorse 1!

[Admiral Yi]

Free the Whitehorse 1!

After he does about 2 months!

[HVC]

How the hell is it "intellectually dishonest" to charge extortion. 

he was extorting his own money back

for normal muggings do you charge people with extortion? or did you do it in this case becasue the guy, in your view, was being smug thinking he'd get off with slap on the wrist sentence?

[Admiral Yi]

Does the school bully get charged with extortion for wedgying a nerd for his lunch money?

[Barrister]

How the hell is it "intellectually dishonest" to charge extortion.

he was extorting his own money back

for normal muggings do you charge people with extortion? or did you do it in this case becasue the guy, in your view, was being smug thinking he'd get off with slap on the wrist sentence?

So how'd you like it if the bank sent someone around to kick in your teeth because you're late on your credit card bill.  After all - you do owe them the money.

No - that's not how you do business in this world.  If you have a dispute with someone about money there are options available to you.

You could charge someone with extortion when there's a "normal mugging", but the offence of robbery is equally as serious as extortion is.  In fact if they guy in my story had succeeded in getting some money from the guy I would have charged him with robbery.

Edit: no, that's wrong.  It would still be extortion because he was not stealing the money.  But robbery and extortion carry the exact same penalties, and indeed are right beside each other in the Code.

[Barrister]

Does the school bully get charged with extortion for wedgying a nerd for his lunch money?

Again, that would be more properly charged as robbery.