GOP Primary Megathread!

[Admiral Yi]

I thought I already mentioned the Cairo speech.

[Sheilbh]

I thought I already mentioned the Cairo speech.

Okay.  And where's the apology in it?

[Admiral Yi]

Okay.  And where's the apology in it?

Paragraphs 3 and 6, as well as the preamble and annexes E, F and J.

I don't remember the damn thing word for word Shelf.  I do remember some mention of previous behavior by the US towards Arabs and/or Muslims that Obama said was no good and that he was going to change.

[Neil]

I think that the reset with Russia implied an apology.

[Sheilbh]

I don't remember the damn thing word for word Shelf.  I do remember some mention of previous behavior by the US towards Arabs and/or Muslims that Obama said was no good and that he was going to change.

First of all that's not an apology.  Secondly you don't need to have read the whole thing.  But if you're saying he's going around the world apologising for America, you should at least know the bit where he says that. 

I can't see any apology in the speech, here:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-at-Cairo-University-6-04-09

The closest I can see to what you're describing is the brief, fleeting mention of the 1953 coup in Iran, which I'd hardly describe as an apology:

This issue has been a source of tension between the United States and the Islamic Republic of Iran.  For many years, Iran has defined itself in part by its opposition to my country, and there is in fact a tumultuous history between us.  In the middle of the Cold War, the United States played a role in the overthrow of a democratically elected Iranian government.  Since the Islamic Revolution, Iran has played a role in acts of hostage-taking and violence against U.S. troops and civilians.  This history is well known.  Rather than remain trapped in the past, I've made it clear to Iran's leaders and people that my country is prepared to move forward.  The question now is not what Iran is against, but rather what future it wants to build.

[Sheilbh]

I think that the reset with Russia implied an apology.

I think a worldwide tour to apologise for America means more than 'implied'.  But I disagree.  It was similar to what Obama said about Iran and his entire foreign policy message in the election which was that it was best to draw a line under the past and just approach the issues afresh.  It was basically a foreign policy version of the 'on the one hand, on the other hand - common ground' structure that he uses in all of his speeches.

[PDH]

Look, Sheilbh, none of that matters. He is planning to take away our guns.

[grumbler]

Look, Sheilbh, none of that matters. He is planning to take away our guns.

And our wimmin!

[Admiral Yi]

Thanks for the link Shelf.  I would count Iran 53, Cold War proxies, torture, Gitmo, and only caring about oil as apologies.

[Sheilbh]

Thanks for the link Shelf.  I would count Iran 53, Cold War proxies, torture, Gitmo, and only caring about oil as apologies.

Okay.  I disagree.  I've quoted the line on Iran which doesn't read as an apology to me.  The line on oil:

Many Gulf states have enjoyed great wealth as a consequence of oil, and some are beginning to focus it on broader development.  But all of us must recognize that education and innovation will be the currency of the 21st century -- (applause) -- and in too many Muslim communities, there remains underinvestment in these areas.  I'm emphasizing such investment within my own country.  And while America in the past has focused on oil and gas when it comes to this part of the world, we now seek a broader engagement.

Is again barely an apology.

I think he comes closest to an apology on torture and Gitmo, but he campaigned against them and the line seems to be more that they were ways that America sort-of let herself down.  So this:

And finally, just as America can never tolerate violence by extremists, we must never alter or forget our principles.  Nine-eleven was an enormous trauma to our country.  The fear and anger that it provoked was understandable, but in some cases, it led us to act contrary to our traditions and our ideals.  We are taking concrete actions to change course.  I have unequivocally prohibited the use of torture by the United States, and I have ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed by early next year.

Still doesn't seem like an apology to me.  As with the others it's more a statement of intent of the sort I'm sure Bush made - saying America under Clinton was too withdrawn from the world but will now engage.  For there to be an apology I think there needs to be a sentence between 'our traditions and our ideals' and 'we are taking concrete actions' that expresses some form of regret or guilt.

What I think of as an apology is something like Bush's comments on Abu Ghraib when he visited Jordan:

We also talked about what has been on the TV screens recently, not only in our own country, but overseas -- the images of cruelty and humiliation. I told His Majesty as plainly as I could that the wrongdoers will be brought to justice, and that the actions of those folks in Iraq do not represent the values of the United States of America.

I told him I was sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners, and the humiliation suffered by their families. I told him I was equally sorry that people who have been seeing those pictures didn't understand the true nature and heart of America. I assured him Americans, like me, didn't appreciate what we saw, that it made us sick to our stomachs. I also made it clear to His Majesty that the troops we have in Iraq, who are there for security and peace and freedom, are the finest of the fine, fantastic United States citizens, who represent the very best qualities of America: courage, love of freedom, compassion, and decency.

It includes the word sorry, acknowledges that something wrong happened, regrets it and says it won't happen again.  That's an apology.

[garbon]

Sheilbh, does a sentence have to contain the word sorry to be an apology to you?  This sounds awfully apologetic to me (and I don't really care whether he apologized or not):  "The fear and anger that it provoked was understandable, but in some cases, it led us to act contrary to our traditions and our ideals."

[Malthus]

I don't get it. Is the argument that Obama is "weak" because he has on a couple of occasions admitted that the actions of previous adminstrations were wrong? And that Romney, if elected, would never do that? 

[Sheilbh]

Sheilbh, does a sentence have to contain the word sorry to be an apology to you? 

No, but it helps.  I'd say you need to admit something was wrong (generally the passive voice won't do), that you regret or feel guilt over it and say that it won't happen again.  Anything less than that is a politicians doing a non-apology 'I'm sorry if any offence was caused'.

I mean to take that example use that structure in an ordinary sense.  X was a provocation that meant, understandably, I went too far and failed to meet my otherwise very high standards.  If that's an apology it's a very passive aggressive one.

[garbon]

Sheilbh, does a sentence have to contain the word sorry to be an apology to you? 

No, but it helps.  I'd say you need to admit something was wrong (generally the passive voice won't do), that you regret or feel guilt over it and say that it won't happen again.  Anything less than that is a politicians doing a non-apology 'I'm sorry if any offence was caused'.

I mean to take that example use that structure in an ordinary sense.  X was a provocation that meant, understandably, I went too far and failed to meet my otherwise very high standards.  If that's an apology it's a very passive aggressive one.

But that's not what he said.  He said X was a provocation but sometimes that led us contrary to our ideals. I'm taking steps to change course by forbidding Y and ordering Z to stop.

Has the statement of wrong doing and steps designed to prevent those things from happening again.

[Zoupa]

I don't get it. Is the argument that Obama is "weak" because he has on a couple of occasions admitted that the actions of previous adminstrations were wrong? And that Romney, if elected, would never do that? 

That's how I understand it too.

Puzzling, really.

Sarkozy, a most arrogant and tough guy macho wannabe (must have something to do with his height), apologized just last week about the treatment of Algerians fighting on the side of France during the civil war over there. No biggie.