GOP Primary Megathread!

[Ideologue]

Yeah, that's my issue.  I'm unsure to what degree there is a coherent "Protestant" entity.  If there is, then Mormons may be excepted, on the basis that they employ a superseding holy book, as a supplement to the New Testament.

If there is no coherent Protestantism, and it is determined purely by memetic descent, then they cannot be excepted; the problem with this is, once you let in Mormons with their wildly divergent ideas, you have to define, for example, Hong Xiuquan's Taiping Christianity as Protestant.  At some point one may have to accept new genera.

[Sheilbh]

I agree the Book of Mormon makes it seem difficult to argue they're Protestant.  If there's one thing that you can boil Protestant identity down to it's reading and having reverence for the Bible.  Their Churches come out of the printing press.  To have a supplemental holy book would seem to me to undermine any claim to being Protestant.

If Mormons are Christian then I think they're a sui generis sect of Christianity, rather than Protestant.

[Berkut]

But what would a theological definition of Protestantism be except for a generic rejection of some specific Catholic theological positions - and really, lets be honest, the historical protestant rejection of Catholicism was really more political and economic in nature than it was theological anyway (and rightly so, since it was driven by the Catholic Church inserting itself into economic and political life).

[Ideologue]

That's a good point Berk--well, I'm bound to accept that since it's what I was trying to say too --but I have no idea.  I tend to see Christianity as a lumpen thing myself, though.*  Catholicism's easy because of the Pope, but the overriding theme of Protestantism is hard to grasp for me.

[Ideologue]

I guess Lutherans and Calvinists are pretty similar, except the latter appear to misunderstand what predestination actually means and the former enthusiastically embrace the morally repugnant implications it has for their soteriology.

I mean, say what you will about Mormonism, but goofy space aliens cuckolding some Jewish carpenter over cosmic monstrosity doesn't lead to quite the same crisis of conscience whereupon you realize that you're far more moral than your dogma's rendition of God.

[Sheilbh]

But what would a theological definition of Protestantism be except for a generic rejection of some specific Catholic theological positions - and really, lets be honest, the historical protestant rejection of Catholicism was really more political and economic in nature than it was theological anyway

I don't think there is a general theological definition of Protestantism.  The closest I think you could get would be salvation by faith alone and sola scriptura.  Then you get into the deeper weeds of predestination and episcopates and so on. 

I don't know how the Mormons do on by faith alone - their investigation of ancestors suggest there may be a more sacramental element going on - but they absolutely fail on the Bible alone.

(and rightly so, since it was driven by the Catholic Church inserting itself into economic and political life).

Wrong.

[Berkut]

But what would a theological definition of Protestantism be except for a generic rejection of some specific Catholic theological positions - and really, lets be honest, the historical protestant rejection of Catholicism was really more political and economic in nature than it was theological anyway

I don't think there is a general theological definition of Protestantism.  The closest I think you could get would be salvation by faith alone and sola scriptura.  Then you get into the deeper weeds of predestination and episcopates and so on. 

I don't know how the Mormons do on by faith alone - their investigation of ancestors suggest there may be a more sacramental element going on - but they absolutely fail on the Bible alone.

How so? A mormon would tell you that they consider the New Testament just as sacred and divinely inspired as any other Christian. They just don't think it is the LAST divine inspiration. I don't think that defines them out of Christianity.

[Sheilbh]

How so? A mormon would tell you that they consider the New Testament just as sacred and divinely inspired as any other Christian. They just don't think it is the LAST divine inspiration. I don't think that defines them out of Christianity.

Sola scriptura means that all you need for salvation is in the Bible alone.  The Catholics and Orthodoxes also believe that there are other sources of infallible, divine truths.  Similarly Mormons may consider the New Testaments is sacred and divine, but they have a supplementary text of further revelations and necessary doctrine. 

I think sola scriptura's as solid a theological basis for Protestantism as you can find.  It doesn't necessarily define Mormons out of Christianity, but I think it does keep them out of Protestantism.

[Razgovory]

(and rightly so, since it was driven by the Catholic Church inserting itself into economic and political life).

Opposite.  The Catholic Church was already in economic and political life, and served to balance the power of the monarchs.  Protestantism appealed to the princes of Europe because it allowed them absolute power, and tear down the international structure that stood in the way of Nationalism.

[Ideologue]

(and rightly so, since it was driven by the Catholic Church inserting itself into economic and political life).

Opposite.  The Catholic Church was already in economic and political life, and served to balance the power of the monarchs.  Protestantism appealed to the princes of Europe because it allowed them absolute power, and tear down the international structure that stood in the way of Nationalism.

Ironic, then, that the states which became the most despotic were Catholic.

[Berkut]

How so? A mormon would tell you that they consider the New Testament just as sacred and divinely inspired as any other Christian. They just don't think it is the LAST divine inspiration. I don't think that defines them out of Christianity.

Sola scriptura means that all you need for salvation is in the Bible alone.  The Catholics and Orthodoxes also believe that there are other sources of infallible, divine truths.  Similarly Mormons may consider the New Testaments is sacred and divine, but they have a supplementary text of further revelations and necessary doctrine. 

I think sola scriptura's as solid a theological basis for Protestantism as you can find.  It doesn't necessarily define Mormons out of Christianity, but I think it does keep them out of Protestantism.

I think it is certainly one by which you can exclude Mormons, but from an objective standpoint outside the religion, it doesn't strike me as definitive.

From a rational standpoint it has some flaws as well, since it relies on the idea that humans have the ability to decide what is and is not scripture, since it was just a bunch of humans getting together and deciding that A, B, and C was gospel, and X, Y, and Z was not. And there is little doubt that THOSE decisions were not strictly driven by theological concerns. But of course that is not convincing to someone within the church, since they operate under the assumption that somehow God would protect scripture.

But this all strikes me as special pleading. Protestants who think sola scriptura are what defines Protestantism obviously believe that to be true, and hence are rather content to make that a defining characteristic, while insisting that anyone who disagrees is by definition not protestant. One could as easily claim that only those who believe in speaking in tongues are the only true Protestants, and those who think otherwise are by definition not protestant. There is nothing special about sola scriptura that makes it definitionally exclusive.

[Sheilbh]

From a rational standpoint it has some flaws as well, since it relies on the idea that humans have the ability to decide what is and is not scripture, since it was just a bunch of humans getting together and deciding that A, B, and C was gospel, and X, Y, and Z was not. And there is little doubt that THOSE decisions were not strictly driven by theological concerns. But of course that is not convincing to someone within the church, since they operate under the assumption that somehow God would protect scripture.

I'm not sure what you mean that those decisions weren't driven by theological concerns.

But this all strikes me as special pleading. Protestants who think sola scriptura are what defines Protestantism obviously believe that to be true, and hence are rather content to make that a defining characteristic, while insisting that anyone who disagrees is by definition not protestant. One could as easily claim that only those who believe in speaking in tongues are the only true Protestants, and those who think otherwise are by definition not protestant. There is nothing special about sola scriptura that makes it definitionally exclusive.

It's not special pleading. 

You asked for a theological definition of Protestantism.  I accept it's very difficult, if not impossible to provide one that fully accounts for all Protestant churches.  However I think that the closest you can get would be to say that Protestantism is based on sola scriptura (referring to the Bible) and justification by faith alone.  Unlike, say, speaking in tongues or trinitarianism I think those beliefs are more or less universal in Protestantism.  I think they are almost its first premises, they are the theological origin of the break with Catholicism.

I think you need that complicating theological aspect to your genealogical definition of Protestantism.  Otherwise you'd end up arguing that the Old Catholics, or Sedevacantists are Protestants, which strikes me as bizarre.

Ironic, then, that the states which became the most despotic were Catholic.

Blame the Protestant and Catholic Reformations

[Razgovory]

(and rightly so, since it was driven by the Catholic Church inserting itself into economic and political life).

Opposite.  The Catholic Church was already in economic and political life, and served to balance the power of the monarchs.  Protestantism appealed to the princes of Europe because it allowed them absolute power, and tear down the international structure that stood in the way of Nationalism.

Ironic, then, that the states which became the most despotic were Catholic.

Prussia was not Catholic.

[Viking]

To describe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a non-Christian church to any audience spreads a misconception that there is something other than Jesus Christ at the heart of the Mormon faith.

For Latter-day Saints, Jesus Christ is the Savior of all people, the divine Son of God. He is the same Jesus Christ of the New Testament, who taught about faith and about love for God and mankind. Jesus Christ — not Moses, Paul or Joseph Smith — is the object of Mormons' devotion and worship. As the Prophet Joseph Smith himself taught, "The fundamental principles of our religion are ... concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it."

This is indeed the daily reality for Latter-day Saints. Jesus Christ is perpetually front and center in the lives of practicing members of the faith. Whenever Mormons pray to God, for instance, they do so in the name of Jesus Christ. Baptism by immersion, according to the symbolism of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection, marks a person's entrance into the faith. The sacrament (what other Christian traditions call communion) is administered weekly in Sunday services for members to reflect on the mercy of Jesus Christ. When Latter-day Saints seek forgiveness, they do so through Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice. They serve the poor and needy and give of their time and money to numerous humanitarian aid efforts in order to follow Christ's teachings. Images of Christ adorn the faith's meetinghouses and temples. Church leaders and members testify of Jesus Christ's reality and divinity. The Son of God appears in the Church's official name: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." While some outsiders know Latter-day Saints as Mormons, members know themselves as part of Christ's Church.

At their best, Latter-day Saints' behavior, speech, thoughts and identity all reflect Christ and His teachings. If you ask a member what it means to belong to the Church, he or she will tell you that most fundamentally it means to believe in Jesus as the Savior of the world and to follow Him.

For Latter-day Saints, being a Christian means being a disciple of Jesus Christ, loving and worshiping Him above all. It means prizing Christ and centering one's life on His teachings from the New Testament. It means striving to live the kind of life that Christ commanded, honoring Him in word and deed. This is the meaning of a Christian, and there is no doubt that Latter-day Saints — who pattern their lives after all of these things — belong to Christ's fold.

They sound pretty damn Christian to me.

No, I'm gonna have to agree with the fundy christians on this, they are not christians. To the Mormon heaven is a planet out there somewhere and the afterlife is a different planet where that mormon sets himself up as God. To the Mormon Jesus did not die in our place in punishment for our sins, which is the central idea of christianity.

Like Islam (and Bahai) Mormonism is a religion that includes a divine/divinely inspired character named Jesus Christ. This does not make any of these religions christian.


N.B. - I'd hold this view even if I were not atheist

[Neil]

Yeah, that's my issue.  I'm unsure to what degree there is a coherent "Protestant" entity.  If there is, then Mormons may be excepted, on the basis that they employ a superseding holy book, as a supplement to the New Testament.

If there is no coherent Protestantism, and it is determined purely by memetic descent, then they cannot be excepted; the problem with this is, once you let in Mormons with their wildly divergent ideas, you have to define, for example, Hong Xiuquan's Taiping Christianity as Protestant.  At some point one may have to accept new genera.

I consider the Protestant churches to be those who broke away in protest of their theological concerns, as opposed to scams like the Mormons or the Scientologists.