GOP Primary Megathread!

[Valmy]

We (well, probably not us, but a future generation) will see the day when national identity will be as obscure and secondary as religious is in Europe now.

Maybe so.  But it needs to be invented.  The current effort, the EU as garbon mentioned, has not exactly been a smashing success so far.  Euro identity based on shared Euro values is not winning hearts and minds.

[Valmy]

To administer the territories of the country called Germany? Who else would do it?

Yeah it is hard to get people to pay taxes and sacrifice in war for an administrative district.

'Our administration over all!  Over all in the world!' just doesn't inspire.

[Malthus]

To administer the territories of the country called Germany? Who else would do it?

Yeah it is hard to get people to pay taxes and sacrifice in war for an administrative district.

'Our administration over all!  Over all in the world!' just doesn't inspire.

Patriotic feelings need not be based on shared ethnicity. Shared allegiance to a political system and/or its symbols will suffice - look at the US.

[Valmy]

Patriotic feelings need not be based on shared ethnicity. Shared allegiance to a political system and/or its symbols will suffice - look at the US.

Yes but they need to be created.  The political principals and symbols behind the German Federal Republic maybe something to stir pride in the hearts of its ethnic Turk citizens.  But what might those be?  It is a transition.  That is what I have been trying to get at.  The ideas of ethnicity and nationality have been ingrained for a few centuries now.

I also fail to see where I said they MUST be based on ethnicity, just in the Old World they are as it stands right now.  So my point was, given  that fact, it is hard to judge them too harshly for struggling with the immigration issue more than we have.  We do not have the burden of an ethnically based state.

[Malthus]

Patriotic feelings need not be based on shared ethnicity. Shared allegiance to a political system and/or its symbols will suffice - look at the US.

Yes but they need to be created.  The political principals and symbols behind the German Federal Republic maybe something to stir pride in the hearts of its ethnic Turk citizens.  But what might those be?  It is a transition.  That is what I have been trying to get at.  The ideas of ethnicity and nationality have been ingrained for a few centuries now.

I also fail to see where I said they MUST be based on ethnicity, just in the Old World they are as it stands right now.  So my point was, given  that fact, it is hard to judge them too harshly for struggling with the immigration issue more than we have.  We do not have the burden of an ethnically based state.

I don't disagree.

[HVC]

Patriotic feelings need not be based on shared ethnicity. Shared allegiance to a political system and/or its symbols will suffice - look at the US.

Yes but they need to be created.  The political principals and symbols behind the German Federal Republic maybe something to stir pride in the hearts of its ethnic Turk citizens.  But what might those be?  It is a transition.  That is what I have been trying to get at.  The ideas of ethnicity and nationality have been ingrained for a few centuries now.

War. War seems to bond people in a us versus them sort of way. the new Gerky (uhm, Turmany?) must war against another nation and build bonds. it's the only way to go forward.

[Malthus]

Patriotic feelings need not be based on shared ethnicity. Shared allegiance to a political system and/or its symbols will suffice - look at the US.

Yes but they need to be created.  The political principals and symbols behind the German Federal Republic maybe something to stir pride in the hearts of its ethnic Turk citizens.  But what might those be?  It is a transition.  That is what I have been trying to get at.  The ideas of ethnicity and nationality have been ingrained for a few centuries now.

War. War seems to bond people in a us versus them sort of way. the new Gerky (uhm, Turmany?) must war against another nation and build bonds. it's the only way to go forward.

The War of 1812 is alleged to have had that effect in both Canada and the US. I suggest that Turmany declare war on Canada forthwith. 

[Tamas]

Patriotic feelings need not be based on shared ethnicity. Shared allegiance to a political system and/or its symbols will suffice - look at the US.

Yes but they need to be created.  The political principals and symbols behind the German Federal Republic maybe something to stir pride in the hearts of its ethnic Turk citizens.  But what might those be?  It is a transition.  That is what I have been trying to get at.  The ideas of ethnicity and nationality have been ingrained for a few centuries now.

War. War seems to bond people in a us versus them sort of way. the new Gerky (uhm, Turmany?) must war against another nation and build bonds. it's the only way to go forward.

Yes. Well, if not war, then hatred.

Earh could sure use some hostile aliens from space. Would unite the planet.   

[Barrister]

Patriotic feelings need not be based on shared ethnicity. Shared allegiance to a political system and/or its symbols will suffice - look at the US.

Yes but they need to be created.  The political principals and symbols behind the German Federal Republic maybe something to stir pride in the hearts of its ethnic Turk citizens.  But what might those be?  It is a transition.  That is what I have been trying to get at.  The ideas of ethnicity and nationality have been ingrained for a few centuries now.

I also fail to see where I said they MUST be based on ethnicity, just in the Old World they are as it stands right now.  So my point was, given  that fact, it is hard to judge them too harshly for struggling with the immigration issue more than we have.  We do not have the burden of an ethnically based state.

A nation can also be based on a shared culture, rather than ethnicity.  Quebecois nationalists claim that is what they would like to create - a Quebecois nation based on a shared language and culture, but regardless of whether your ethnicity is French, African, Anglo, or whatever.  Britain is something of this model as well.

[garbon]

On the other - I'm not sure that it is anymore interesting that any of the many states that exist for non-ethnic reasons. (See many of the American nations - and African ones to boot. Actually even pickup India.)

On the contrary it is far easier fur us over here.  African nations have all sorts of problems because of ethnic issues, but supposedly because they are NOT based on ethnicity and thus struggle to get real national solidarity.  Same for India actually.  The very fact India exists at all is rather miraculous.  A very unexpected positive consequence for the otherwise dreary history of the Brits in India.

The problem in the New World is around race not ethnicity.  Thanks to our particular historical baggage.

But my point was that said countries can still exist despite not having a shared ethnicity. They certainly struggle with it but nevertheless they exist.  And I guess my early reading on what you said made it seem as though it was largely fruitless in such old world places to try and construct new, national identities with non-ethnic bases. My apologies.

[Valmy]

A nation can also be based on a shared culture, rather than ethnicity.  Quebecois nationalists claim that is what they would like to create - a Quebecois nation based on a shared language and culture, but regardless of whether your ethnicity is French, African, Anglo, or whatever.  Britain is something of this model as well.

Where did I give the impression I thought that a nation HAD to be based on ethnicity?  I was not saying that at all.

[HVC]

The War of 1812 is alleged to have had that effect in both Canada and the US. I suggest that Turmany declare war on Canada forthwith. 

Canada is good, but poland is closer. And historically both ethnicities have a history of war against the poles, so even greater bonding potential.

[Valmy]

But my point was that said countries can still exist despite not having a shared ethnicity. They certainly struggle with it but nevertheless they exist.  And I guess my early reading on what you said made it seem as though it was largely fruitless in such old world places to try and construct new, national identities with non-ethnic bases. My apologies.

It does seem like I gave that impression

[Malthus]

Canada is good, but poland is closer. And historically both ethnicities have a history of war against the poles, so even greater bonding potential.

The new symbol of germano-turkish unity: Martinus. 

[DGuller]

If fighting Poland unites nations, then half of Eurasia would be united by now.