How Progressive Are You?

[Barrister]

I still think you guys are going overboard and jumping to conclusions. I see no reason why even the vast majority of religious zealots would have an axe to grind about Vinnie studying gas clouds in space.

uh, yeah.

Now I don't want to go too far out on a limb here since Vinnie knows his own work and situation a lot better than I do, so maybe he does have young earthers protesting outside his door and constant attempts from Republican lawmakers to turn his lab into a creationist museum.

But it simply doesn't jive with my own knowledge of the political right-wing.  If anything the right tends to be a stronger supporter of hard science, and space science (Bush was pushing for a renewed investment in space, including going to Mars).

So I wonder if Vinraith isn't letting his own very negative perception of religious people in general, and the religious right in particular, colour his judgment here.  But as I said this branch is getting a bit creaky so I'll just stop.

[vinraith]

uh, yeah.

Now I don't want to go too far out on a limb here since Vinnie knows his own work and situation a lot better than I do, so maybe he does have young earthers protesting outside his door and constant attempts from Republican lawmakers to turn his lab into a creationist museum.

But it simply doesn't jive with my own knowledge of the political right-wing.  If anything the right tends to be a stronger supporter of hard science, and space science (Bush was pushing for a renewed investment in space, including going to Mars).

Protesting isn't necessary or relevant, all that's required is funding cuts. Pure science is not a Republican spending priority these days, and Bush's manned space exploration push nearly gutted NASA's other science initiatives.

This entire conversation is just becoming strangely silly. The current Republican party wouldn't fund my work, given the choice. Democrats would. Simple.

[Barrister]

The current Republican party wouldn't fund my work, given the choice. Democrats would. Simple.

It just doesn't seem that simple to me.

But it is your work, not mine.  I don't suppose you could provide a link or other evidence that would prove me wrong?

[derspiess]

This entire conversation is just becoming strangely silly. The current Republican party wouldn't fund my work, given the choice. Democrats would. Simple.

Now that may be a fair statement, but it's not exactly what you were saying earlier

[Neil]

(Bush was pushing for a renewed investment in space, including going to Mars).

The manned spaceflight initiative and space sciences aren't the same thing.  A manned mission to Mars would be a prestige mission, not a science mission.  And if the science budget gets cut in order to pay for it, scientists like Vinraith would be out the door in favour of engineers and contractors.

Of course, a manned mission to Mars is never going to happen, but it wouldn't be an entirely bad thing.  I remember when I was a boy, people were much more interested in space.  Skylab, the shuttle, the Voyager probes, men who had walked on the moon less than ten years earlier, these were things that many people were interested in.  These days, space has become mundane, and there's no sense of achievement that comes out of shuttle missions that have become routine.

[dps]

This entire conversation is just becoming strangely silly. The current Republican party wouldn't fund my work, given the choice. Democrats would. Simple.

Now that may be a fair statement, but it's not exactly what you were saying earlier

Yeah, science nerds are a very small percentage of the electorate, so pure science is an easy target when it comes to budget cuts, and the Republican party still pays a bit of lip service to fiscal conservatism.  But that doesn't really have anything to do with religious fundamentalism.  And speaking as both a Christian fundamentalist and an economic/fiscal conservative, given the chance, I'd gladly abolish Medicaid and Medicare and give a big chunk of that money to Vinnie.   

[Neil]

Yeah, science nerds are a very small percentage of the electorate, so pure science is an easy target when it comes to budget cuts, and the Republican party still pays a bit of lip service to fiscal conservatism.  But that doesn't really have anything to do with religious fundamentalism.  And speaking as both a Christian fundamentalist and an economic/fiscal conservative, given the chance, I'd gladly abolish Medicaid and Medicare and give a big chunk of that money to Vinnie.

How do you square that with the knowledge that Vinraith's research flies in the face of the book of Genesis being literal truth?

[dps]

(Bush was pushing for a renewed investment in space, including going to Mars).

The manned spaceflight initiative and space sciences aren't the same thing.  A manned mission to Mars would be a prestige mission, not a science mission.  And if the science budget gets cut in order to pay for it, scientists like Vinraith would be out the door in favour of engineers and contractors.

Of course, a manned mission to Mars is never going to happen, but it wouldn't be an entirely bad thing.  I remember when I was a boy, people were much more interested in space.  Skylab, the shuttle, the Voyager probes, men who had walked on the moon less than ten years earlier, these were things that many people were interested in.  These days, space has become mundane, and there's no sense of achievement that comes out of shuttle missions that have become routine.

If we want to fund space science, we need to have a high-profile manned space program as PR to stir up public interest and support for it. 

[Neil]

If we want to fund space science, we need to have a high-profile manned space program as PR to stir up public interest and support for it.

Which is all well and good, but you can't cut science funding to pay for PR.  The manned space program should be over and above the real science.

[Barrister]

(Bush was pushing for a renewed investment in space, including going to Mars).

The manned spaceflight initiative and space sciences aren't the same thing.  A manned mission to Mars would be a prestige mission, not a science mission.  And if the science budget gets cut in order to pay for it, scientists like Vinraith would be out the door in favour of engineers and contractors.

But cutting ground-based space science in favour of manned space travel isn't what Vinraith was talking about when he said that Republicans don't want to fund his research.

[dps]

Yeah, science nerds are a very small percentage of the electorate, so pure science is an easy target when it comes to budget cuts, and the Republican party still pays a bit of lip service to fiscal conservatism.  But that doesn't really have anything to do with religious fundamentalism.  And speaking as both a Christian fundamentalist and an economic/fiscal conservative, given the chance, I'd gladly abolish Medicaid and Medicare and give a big chunk of that money to Vinnie.

How do you square that with the knowledge that Vinraith's research flies in the face of the book of Genesis being literal truth?

It doesn't.  The supposed conflict between science and religion was conjured up by demagogues on both sides to boost their own standing, and has gone on so long and become so ingrained that people who aren't themselves demagogues believe it.

[dps]

If we want to fund space science, we need to have a high-profile manned space program as PR to stir up public interest and support for it.

Which is all well and good, but you can't cut science funding to pay for PR.  The manned space program should be over and above the real science.

I agree that that's the way it should be, but unfortunately nowdays you have to put style over substance to get anything done politically.

[Neil]

But cutting ground-based space science in favour of manned space travel isn't what Vinraith was talking about when he said that Republicans don't want to fund his research.

I was just replying to the idea that Bush was pro-space science.

[Neil]

It doesn't.  The supposed conflict between science and religion was conjured up by demagogues on both sides to boost their own standing, and has gone on so long and become so ingrained that people who aren't themselves demagogues believe it.

I can assure you that there is actually a conflict between science and religion.  When some people are saying that they've done some math based on how long folks allegedly lived in their holy book, and they've come up with a universe that is 6,000 years old, that's a claim that flies in the face of everything we know about the universe.  When they pursue it through the peer review process, that's alright.  After all, I'm sure that scientists have made ridiculous claims like that over the years, and that's what peer review is for.  However, when they try and do an end run around the process and slip their lunacy into science education in public schools, that's a conflict.

Besides, demagogues are the ones who write the laws these days.

[Berkut]

I still think you guys are going overboard and jumping to conclusions. I see no reason why even the vast majority of religious zealots would have an axe to grind about Vinnie studying gas clouds in space.

No shit.  I would imagine quite a few would not necessarily want to pay for that, but not out of religious zealoutry.

I suspect that this is the real reason for Vinnys hysterics.

"What? They don't want to pay me to study gas clouds! DAMN THEM ALL!!!!!"