First Amendment Under Attack

[crazy canuck]

How the hell this is the case of the First Amendment at all???

So you're fine with the government firing employees for writing op-eds in the newspaper that degree with government policy?

I'm pretty sure that if I wrote a letter to a newspaper criticizing government policy I would be canned PDQ.

We're not talking about what would happen, we're talking about what should happen. Do you think that that is an appropriate response? I certainly do not.

As a public servant it is not appropriate for you to be expressing public political opinions.  Public servants are supposed to be apolitical, and able to work with governments of any political ideology.

The SCC in Osborne (sp?) disagreed with your analysis and struck down the provision of the Act that required public servants to be apolitical.  I believe the Act now provides a restriction that balances the public servants freedom of expression with the requirements of their job by allowing all expression which does not interfere with their duties.

[crazy canuck]

At least up here, the government (and NOT private business) must comply with the Charter of Rights in everything that it does.  You'd never say "well the government should be treated like a private company" when it comes to respecting human rights.

Up here the Common law is interpreted in a manner consistent which Charter values.  As a result it would be very hard for an employer to argue they had cause to terminate an employee for engaging in an expressive right protected by the Charter.  There would have to be a clear link between what the employee said and harm to the employer.

[crazy canuck]

How the hell this is the case of the First Amendment at all???

It is government action imposing a deleterious consqeunce on a citizen for the sole reason that that citizen exercised his speech rights in a particular way.

How could not not be a First Amendment issue?

It's the government acting with dominium, not imperium. As such its actions are no different than those of a private company.

So the government is not the government in some circumstances in Poland?  Sounds like a nice loophole for governments to use to restrict fundamental freedoms.

[DontSayBanana]

As a public servant it is not appropriate for you to be expressing public political opinions.  Public servants are supposed to be apolitical, and able to work with governments of any political ideology. 

So, basically, by the argument you and Sheilbh are presenting, a citizen forfeits their first amendment rights upon joining a civil service?  That's not how it works.  The service and its policies are expected to be apolitical, not the workers.  It should only become an issue when someone purports to speak for the organization, because the political comments are then perceived as (if they are not actually) a matter of policy.

[Barrister]

As a public servant it is not appropriate for you to be expressing public political opinions.  Public servants are supposed to be apolitical, and able to work with governments of any political ideology. 

So, basically, by the argument you and Sheilbh are presenting, a citizen forfeits their first amendment rights upon joining a civil service?  That's not how it works.  The service and its policies are expected to be apolitical, not the workers.  It should only become an issue when someone purports to speak for the organization, because the political comments are then perceived as (if they are not actually) a matter of policy.

Hardly forfeits, but yes, there are some restrictions on your freedom of speech.

[Admiral Yi]

I thought there was something in the civil service regs about political acitivity.  No volunteering for campaigns, that kind of stuff.

[The Minsky Moment]

It's the government acting with dominium, not imperium.

We Yanks live in a real democracy, not some bastardized wannabe neo-Roman Empire with periodic voting.  State action is state action.  Constitutional limits on state action are interpreted strictly.

[The Minsky Moment]

I thought there was something in the civil service regs about political acitivity.  No volunteering for campaigns, that kind of stuff.

Regulations can say whatever, but they have to be consistent with constitutional limits on state power. 

[Admiral Yi]

Regulations can say whatever, but they have to be consistent with constitutional limits on state power.

I was responding to Banana.  Quit stalking me.

[DontSayBanana]

I was responding to Banana.  Quit stalking me.

A quick glance through the links provided by Department of the Interior says otherwise.  I can't be arsed to go through all the repealed shite.

[The Minsky Moment]

.  Mind you, I'm not entirely comfortable with it either, and I'm not sure how you can square it with Pickering

Assuming the facts are as reported in Timmy's article, you can't.

[Barrister]

I thought there was something in the civil service regs about political acitivity.  No volunteering for campaigns, that kind of stuff.

There are.  Up here volunteering for campaigns is fine, but I have to stay out of any public role.  But I can stuff all the envelopes that I want to.

[HVC]

I thought there was something in the civil service regs about political acitivity.  No volunteering for campaigns, that kind of stuff.

There are.  Up here volunteering for campaigns is fine, but I have to stay out of any public role.  But I can stuff all the envelopes that I want to.

could you do pro-bono work for a politician? I don't know what that would entail. Editing legal stuff like bills and the like i guess.

Actual, since you're working for the crown, can you do any other kind of legal work? or is that looked down upon?

[crazy canuck]

I thought there was something in the civil service regs about political acitivity.  No volunteering for campaigns, that kind of stuff.

There are.  Up here volunteering for campaigns is fine, but I have to stay out of any public role.  But I can stuff all the envelopes that I want to.

BB you should re-read the applicable sections of the Public Service Act.  You are even able to run for public office with consent.  Your notion expressed early in the thread of complete impartiality of all public servants has not been accurate since 1991 (the date of the SCC Osborne case).

[Barrister]

I thought there was something in the civil service regs about political acitivity.  No volunteering for campaigns, that kind of stuff.

There are.  Up here volunteering for campaigns is fine, but I have to stay out of any public role.  But I can stuff all the envelopes that I want to.

could you do pro-bono work for a politician? I don't know what that would entail. Editing legal stuff like bills and the like i guess.

Actual, since you're working for the crown, can you do any other kind of legal work? or is that looked down upon?

The problem is insurance.  Working for the government I don't carry any professional liability insurance (government self-insures), which means if I did legal work outside of work I would have no insurance.

Plus pro bono work is supposed to be work that helps the community.  But my work already helps the community.