Palestine voted into UNESCO, USA cuts funding

[Neil]

Why can't the Palestinians bolster the moderates themselves?  Why is it on the onus for Israel to always be the adult in the room?

Israel has a state, the Palestinians don't.
I really think the smart move is open the door wide open to the PA and welcome them to statehood.  Then they finally will have to be responsible for themselves and abide by the rules of the state system.

The problem is then you have to set borders with them, which the settler movement can never accept, and the settlers wield disproportionate political power in Israel.

[Sheilbh]

I really think the smart move is open the door wide open to the PA and welcome them to statehood.  Then they finally will have to be responsible for themselves and abide by the rules of the state system.

I agree.  The Israeli FM should sit in the General Assembly inviting the Arab League to endorse a Palestinian state on the borders according to the UN, which will mean acknowledging Israel.

[Neil]

I really think the smart move is open the door wide open to the PA and welcome them to statehood.  Then they finally will have to be responsible for themselves and abide by the rules of the state system.

I agree.  The Israeli FM should sit in the General Assembly inviting the Arab League to endorse a Palestinian state on the borders according to the UN, which will mean acknowledging Israel.

That's not going to happen, because Israel can't accept the borders the UN would want to impose.

[Sheilbh]

I'm concerned that you don't differentiate in any way between hilltop settlements not approved by the Israeli government and the large cities which have been established in the corridor to jerusalem and in the hills above the israeli coastal plain as well as the settlements within municipal jerusalem.

Some settlement's will stay, they have to.  Some will have to be dismantled.  I don't distinguish because that's something that'll get settled in negotiations.  All I'm saying should happen is that Israel should freeze their expansion as agreed to under the road map and as requested by the US and the rest of the international community.

You are in danger of becoming more catholic than the pope, since Olmert's plan kept almost all of the border blocs as well as the jerusalem neighborhoods in his proposal, which Abbas later said was satisfactory (after Netanyahu came to power mind you). The parties agree on lines drawn on maps and in the dirt, in the west bank and in jerusalem. The sticking point is still the refugees.

Abbas asked for a few days to study the proposal Olmert presented and was told to go ahead - the issue was the land swap and aquifiers, the value of the land the PA would receive and that sort of thing.  The next day Olmert resigned as PM.  I thought Abbas wanted to begin negotiations again based on Olmert's proposal with Livni, but she couldn't get a coalition, then there was an election.  Bibi won.

Secondly as I say I think right of return is really overstated.  Olmert and Abbas had agreed to a return of 10 000 - symbolic more than anything - and certain humanitarian exceptions over 10 years.  I think the Bush Administration suggested, with support from those countries, that they'd help resettle refugees who didn't get to go to Israel and didn't want to go to Palestine.  I think Argentina was an option of where they'd go.

I agree that settlement building is the Israelis primary method of redrawing the border, in effect marking the territories doggy style.

I don't think the Green line is a plausible secure border for Israel and Palestine.

No argument at all.

It's the fly in the ointment. It seems that nobody has replied or responded to my post on how the mere existence of HAMAS in Gaza affects the ability of the PA or PLO or anybody else to negotiate. It's a demonstration that Abbas cannot deliver anything. Even if there is a three state solution which includes peace with the west bank all that is needed is a HAMAS coup or election victory against FATAH to end it all, starting a new war.

Abbas can deliver most things.  The outstanding issues don't involve Gaza.

I think this is largely more of what I said though: Gaza's a problem.  It adds more detail to why Gaza's a problem.  I've no idea what sort of solution is possible.

[Sheilbh]

That's not going to happen, because Israel can't accept the borders the UN would want to impose.

The Israelis wouldn't be, they'd be continuing the bilateral negotiation process to reach final status talks.  The Arab votes acknowledging that Israel exists would be rather more permanent.

[grumbler]

I agree.  The Israeli FM should sit in the General Assembly inviting the Arab League to endorse a Palestinian state on the borders according to the UN, which will mean acknowledging Israel.

Absolutely agree, and would note that it is just as important that the PA would also, if it gets designated a state government, lose its status as "the government of Palestinians wherever they are."  Palestinians who accept that their nationality is Palestinian rather than Israeli would have to rights to return to country even they admit isn't their own (though they would be entitled to restitution for land lost).  Palestinians who insist they are Israelis and not Palestinians wouldn't be entitled to representation by the PA.

That would be worth more to Israel than anything they would lose to Palestinian state, I would think.  Palestinian statehood would be a boon for Israel.  If the Israeli government refuses to see that, then I don't see any reason why the US government should back the Israeli government in their mistake.

[Neil]

That would be worth more to Israel than anything they would lose to Palestinian state, I would think.  Palestinian statehood would be a boon for Israel.  If the Israeli government refuses to see that, then I don't see any reason why the US government should back the Israeli government in their mistake.

Because Jews vote and donate to political campaigns?

[Solmyr]

I really think the smart move is open the door wide open to the PA and welcome them to statehood.  Then they finally will have to be responsible for themselves and abide by the rules of the state system.

And when they don't, what then?

[Razgovory]

Why can't the Palestinians bolster the moderates themselves?  Why is it on the onus for Israel to always be the adult in the room?

Israel has a state, the Palestinians don't.
I really think the smart move is open the door wide open to the PA and welcome them to statehood.  Then they finally will have to be responsible for themselves and abide by the rules of the state system.

Okay, I'll bite.  Let them be a de jure state.  Then we'll see if they mend their ways.  It's not like it will hurt anything.  They already are a de facto state.  I agree that the US move was unhelpful, and that Obama seems to be dancing to a tune set by the Republican primary.  Being 100% behind Israel no matter what is counter productive for both us and them.  Especially now when the Israeli government seems have contracted a severe case of the stupid.

[grumbler]

And when they don't, what then?

Same thing as happens when Israel forgets to behave responsibly under the rules of the state system.

[dps]

And when they don't, what then?

Same thing as happens when Israel forgets to behave responsibly under the rules of the state system.

The UN will pass a strongly worded resolution?  Yeah, that'll show 'em.

[Siege]

The problem isn't right of return.  That's like Jerusalem, it's one of the problems everyone know neither side will get entirely what they want but is very much a final status issue.

The problem is settlements right now.  The Israelis aren't meeting even the basic obligations of the road map.

Fuck you, motherfucker.
Settlements are being build in ISRAELI land.
Nobody is building in Gaza or the West Bank.
Jerusalem is israeli territory, wheather you like it or not.

[dps]

Jerusalem is israeli territory, wheather you like it or not.

It's disputed territory, whether you like if or not.

[Neil]

It would have been better if we had put Israel someplace decent, like maybe in Europe.  Maybe Poland could be Israel, and the Poles could go live with their Russian brothers.

[Solmyr]

It would have been better if we had put Israel someplace decent, like maybe in Europe.  Maybe Poland could be Israel, and the Poles could go live with their Russian brothers.

Sadly, Moses decided to go east instead of north.