American Gun Ownership Highest In 18 Years

[derspiess]

I am so happy there is a guarded border between us.

I'm so happy you turn into a blubbering vagina every time the subject of guns comes up.  Pretty amusing

You make it sounds like you want to have sex with him.

How's that?

[Malthus]

Minsky & I were talking about the larger issue of gun rights & restrictions.

Fair enough - but this current round of discussion was triggered by this specific incident. It's an example of an area in which a perfectly reasonable call for restrictions is met with a debate.

To those of us who are looking in from outside the US, it creates an impression of absurdity that there would even be a debate about this case.

Maybe I'm nitpicking, but can we stop saying these are marketed to and sold to children?  They are made for children, but marketed to and sold to adults.

It's "marketed to adults" in the same way any toy is.

There was a recent controversy over the inappropriateness of a pole-dancer outfit marketed for 6 year old girls. Sure, it was "marketed to adults" because 6 year old girls don't buy their own clothes, but nonetheless.

Imagine a company making sex toys for 5 year olds. The fact that adults would be buying them doesn't make it any less bizzare and offensive - maybe it makes it worse, because what kind of adult buys a sex toy for a 5 year old?

I've said that I think 5 years old is too young an age for shooting firearms.  What else do you want me to say?

I don't want you to say anything. I'm simply pointing out that calls for regulation in this area are reasonable, and if it involved any other product, there wouldn't even be a debate about it.

[merithyn]

I have to be willing to give up some of my gun rights in hopes of appearing reasonable to gun control advocates?  Which ones?

Filing background check paperwork before you purchase a weapon out of the trunk of somebody's car at the 18th Annual Hootenanny & Hee Haw Gunnapalooza.

In practice that would not inconvenience me very much. But on principle I don't like the idea of me not being allowed to sell my own personal property without the government's approval.

Except that that happens all the time. I can't sell my homebrew out of the back of my car. Why can you sell your guns?

You all know that I appreciate guns, but I also appreciate being smart about what's allowed to be sold, to whom, and where. I understand the desire to sell your own property without interference, but you can't check to see if the guy you're about to sell your old handgun to is going to walk into his wife's office and blow her away because you don't know that there's a restraining order on him. THAT'S the difference.

[derspiess]

Except that that happens all the time. I can't sell my homebrew out of the back of my car. Why can you sell your guns?

You shouldn't be selling anyway.  You're supposed to share & trade

A better analogy is whether or not you can sell your homebrewing equipment.

You all know that I appreciate guns, but I also appreciate being smart about what's allowed to be sold, to whom, and where. I understand the desire to sell your own property without interference, but you can't check to see if the guy you're about to sell your old handgun to is going to walk into his wife's office and blow her away because you don't know that there's a restraining order on him. THAT'S the difference.

I probably wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over such a law, at least the way it was written in the Manchin proposal (exemptions for family members and other situations).  But to me it's a matter of property rights.

[merithyn]

Except that that happens all the time. I can't sell my homebrew out of the back of my car. Why can you sell your guns?

You shouldn't be selling anyway.  You're supposed to share & trade

A better analogy is whether or not you can sell your homebrewing equipment.

No, it's not. The homebrew is mine. I made it. No different than baking cookies or cakes. But, of course, I can't sell any of those things without government interference. We can't have a lemonade stand without a permit in my town, but anyone can sell a firearm anywhere at any time.

That's problematic.

[Caliga]

anyone can sell a firearm anywhere at any time.

in Illinois?

[derspiess]

Except that that happens all the time. I can't sell my homebrew out of the back of my car. Why can you sell your guns?

You shouldn't be selling anyway.  You're supposed to share & trade

A better analogy is whether or not you can sell your homebrewing equipment.

No, it's not. The homebrew is mine. I made it. No different than baking cookies or cakes. But, of course, I can't sell any of those things without government interference. We can't have a lemonade stand without a permit in my town, but anyone can sell a firearm anywhere at any time.

That's problematic.

It is different.  Homebrewing culture is such that you just don't sell it-- you share.  But getting beyond that, meh-- I think you should be able to sell it if you wanted.

[Grey Fox]

What about meth? Can you sell that?

[merithyn]

It is different.  Homebrewing culture is such that you just don't sell it-- you share.  But getting beyond that, meh-- I think you should be able to sell it if you wanted.

Except that there's a reason you can't. Part of it is taxing, sure, but there's also the fact that some homebrews can cause serious health issues. There's the problem of people selling hooch, with no idea what the alcohol percentage is, which can cause problems. There's a host of reasons why these things are regulated. I don't always agree with how heavily regulated they are, but I do understand why they have to at least be regulated some.

It doesn't take a great mental leap to understand why gun sales should be regulated. The reasons are numerous and obvious. And still, there are those who flat-out refuse to acknowledge that some regulation is necessary. As JR and Malthus have said, it's become so politicized that common sense is lost.

And I mean that on both sides. I'm sorry, but those anti-gun nutters are as bad as (if not worse) than the pro-gun nutters. The combination makes the whole situation beyond the pale, and dangerous for everyone else.

[derspiess]

anyone can sell a firearm anywhere at any time.

in Illinois?

Per federal law you can't sell to anyone out of state absent proper licensing-- all interstate transfers must go through a federal dealer (or to a C&R license-holder if the firearm is classified Curio & Relic).  And you can't sell to anyone you have reason to believe is a convicted felon or other dangerous person.

And of course different states/localities have their own restrictions.

Personally, I would only sell or give a handgun to someone I knew fairly well.  The only firearms I've ever sold to individuals not through a dealer have been old military surplus bolt-action rifles, which aren't too likely to be used in crimes. 

[crazy canuck]

What about meth? Can you sell that?

In nice bright pink tablets packaged for children.  But not to worry children wont actually buy them.  Their parents will buy the meth for the children so all is well.  Or does that only work for guns?

[derspiess]

Except that there's a reason you can't. Part of it is taxing, sure, but there's also the fact that some homebrews can cause serious health issues. There's the problem of people selling hooch, with no idea what the alcohol percentage is, which can cause problems. There's a host of reasons why these things are regulated. I don't always agree with how heavily regulated they are, but I do understand why they have to at least be regulated some.

I wouldn't have a problem with it being unregulated, below a certain quantity threshold of course.

It doesn't take a great mental leap to understand why gun sales should be regulated. The reasons are numerous and obvious. And still, there are those who flat-out refuse to acknowledge that some regulation is necessary. As JR and Malthus have said, it's become so politicized that common sense is lost.

And I mean that on both sides. I'm sorry, but those anti-gun nutters are as bad as (if not worse) than the pro-gun nutters. The combination makes the whole situation beyond the pale, and dangerous for everyone else.

The universal background check thing is not a gun issue to me-- it's a property rights issue.  If you're telling me my property rights concern has zero merit then we might as well end the discussion.

[Malthus]

What about meth? Can you sell that?

In nice bright pink tablets packaged for children.  But not to worry children wont actually buy them.  Their parents will buy the meth for the children so all is well.  Or does that only work for guns?

Little pink teddy bear shaped pellets of meth, like the kiddie vitamins. 

[merithyn]

Per federal law you can't sell to anyone out of state absent proper licensing-- all interstate transfers must go through a federal dealer (or to a C&R license-holder if the firearm is classified Curio & Relic).  And you can't sell to anyone you have reason to believe is a convicted felon or other dangerous person.

And of course different states/localities have their own restrictions.

Personally, I would only sell or give a handgun to someone I knew fairly well.  The only firearms I've ever sold to individuals not through a dealer have been old military surplus bolt-action rifles, which aren't too likely to be used in crimes.

That's great. YOU'RE fairly responsible and intelligent. Are you going to assume that everyone is? Or even most people are? Especially those who are so extreme regarding gun ownership?

And you know, even those you know can do stupid shit. All it takes is one cheating spouse for someone to lose their mind. Most people don't brag about restraining orders, so you could easily sell a gun to a "friend" who then decides it's time for her to take her bastard of a husband out for good, even after he's applied to the police for help.

I just don't see the negative to requiring regulation on selling firearms. I really don't. And "I don't wanna" just isn't enough for me.

I have no problem with your gun collection. I take no issue with your joy in shooting them for fun. But there is also nothing wrong with reasonable regulation on who is allowed to get those guns.

The universal background check thing is not a gun issue to me-- it's a property rights issue.  If you're telling me my property rights concern has zero merit then we might as well end the discussion.

I'm saying that property rights do and always have taken second place to the safety of the general population. You jump through a lot more hoops to buy and sell a house than we're talking about here regarding something that can - and often does - lead to a fatality.

[derspiess]

I'm saying that property rights do and always have taken second place to the safety of the general population.

I disagree.