Alex Salmond to let 16-year-olds vote in bid to secure independence

[Razgovory]

That's a very low bar for demonstrating the existence of a mono-culture.  Circular argument, really.

That would also suggest Canada is a monoculture since the majority of Canadians believe that Canada should exist.

[Oexmelin]

Of course it doesn't because the from the very beginning, the US was not designed as a mono-cultural nation.  That's the point.

Very few were, for very few nations were "designed".

This is the usual problem in such debates.

Some will accuse others of glossing over differences internal to some nations - but then, one is left with the question as to what binds a nation together, instead of simply being an addition of individuals.  The easy way out is to turn to law, , because it can be described in the terms law itself provides to do so. But then it looks unsatisfactory to explain the interaction between people who care little about the wording of the law, and does little to explain the preexistence of nations. The hard way is to claim to look at culture - and then we are faced with the difficulty of pinpointing what, in fact, culture is - either generally (but then it becomes too general), or specifically (but then, it seems tailored to each case, or, indeed, tautological).

[garbon]

Let's talk about Arizona.

Focusing on one data point to suit your purposes? Cool.

[jimmy olsen]

So, Ide...would you like to commission a map?

[garbon]

How many Israeli disagree that Israel should exist right now?

That's a very low bar for demonstrating the existence of a mono-culture.  Circular argument, really.

Slaves don't really count, you know.

 

At the time of Independance, certainly a majority felt as Americans.  AFAIK the US Constitution doesn't mention anything about German, Dutch, French or Irish. 

Of course it doesn't because the from the very beginning, the US was not designed as a mono-cultural nation.  That's the point.

You are now making a perfectly circular argument that every nation without a strong separatist movement can be said to be mono-cultural, because "culture" is you are defining "culture" merely as sharing a national affiliation or identity.

The world according to viper is an interesting place.

[Grey Fox]

So the argument is that the British Government didn't have the right to alter the boundaries between its possessions?

The British Gov has the right, the problem is when Canada achieve full independence, the Federal government didn't revisit the situation, still hasn't. Since Quebec isn't a country The Provincial Gov doesn't have any recourse other then saying it doesn't recognize the 1927 decisions, just like they do with the 1982 constitution.

And then, all this argument will get much more complicated once we include Nunatsiavut in the discussion.

[viper37]

That's a very low bar for demonstrating the existence of a mono-culture.  Circular argument, really.

it's the one you gave me.  I'm simply asking how many Israelis believe their country shouldn't exist.  It sounds bizarre to me that someone emigrates and chooses to live in a such a country.

 

Ok, what I mean is that they had no say in the foundation of America, like the Indians.
Nobody asked the slaves to vote on independance, no one asked the Shawnees if they tought forming a new country with the Americans was a good idea for them.  No one asked the tribes beyond the Mississipi, in yet uncharted lands what they tought about it.
This is what I meant.  Not that there were no slaves.

To determine the foundation of a country, you have to look at the people who created it.  And that wasn't the black slaves, nor the indians.  So saying the US was a multi-cultural entity because there were indians and black slaves, wich were practically denied all rights in the US Colonies is a dubious argument, imho.

Of course it doesn't because the from the very beginning, the US was not designed as a mono-cultural nation.  That's the point.

You are now making a perfectly circular argument that every nation without a strong separatist movement can be said to be mono-cultural, because "culture" is you are defining "culture" merely as sharing a national affiliation or identity.

Well, a seperation movement usually occur when a distinct nation occupies a distinct territory.
Multiculturalism is the appreciation, acceptance or promotion of multiple cultures, applied to the demographic make-up of a specific place, usually at the organizational level, e.g. schools, businesses, neighborhoods, cities or nations

One could say it describes Canada, partly.  In theory, certainly.  It's Trudeau's dream, certainly.
In practice, lots of work to do.  But that's really not what I'm seeing in the US:
The melting pot is a metaphor for a heterogeneous society becoming more homogeneous, the different elements "melting together" into a harmonious whole with a common culture. It is particularly used to describe the assimilation of immigrants to the United States; the melting-together metaphor was in use by the 1780s.

[Razgovory]

What more work do you think Canada need to do on the Multicultural front?  From your previous complaints it seems that what you want is everyone to speak French.

[viper37]

Focusing on one data point to suit your purposes? Cool.

I haven't searched the policies of all US States, no.  I know the list for non-bilingual education in US states is more than 2 States, but that's pretty much irrelevant in itsefl without correlating it with the number of non english speakers in the particular State.  What I do know is that States who feel threatened by mass immigration from a different culture, mainly Spanish today, but I'm also seeing movement against building a Mosquee in some States/Counties.  Not only on the 9/11 site, but also in Tennessee.

It's hard to imagine a real multi-cultural state protesting against a symbol of difference.

[viper37]

What more work do you think Canada need to do on the Multicultural front?  From your previous complaints it seems that what you want is everyone to speak French.

take your pills Raz.  You're hallucinating again.

[Razgovory]

What more work do you think Canada need to do on the Multicultural front?  From your previous complaints it seems that what you want is everyone to speak French.

take your pills Raz.  You're hallucinating again.

Okay, enlighten me.  What do you want from Multiculturalism?

[The Minsky Moment]

Very few were, for very few nations were "designed".

I disagree - most nations were designed, quite consciously, and the US is definitely among those.  Indeed, in the that specific case there was a long, open and extensive debate as to whether such a nation should come into being at all, and what the basis for such a project should be.  In other cases, the discussion was not quite as obvious and open, but it happened nonetheless.

Some will accuse others of glossing over differences internal to some nations - but then, one is left with the question as to what binds a nation together, instead of simply being an addition of individuals.  The easy way out is to turn to law, , because it can be described in the terms law itself provides to do so. But then it looks unsatisfactory to explain the interaction between people who care little about the wording of the law, and does little to explain the preexistence of nations. The hard way is to claim to look at culture - and then we are faced with the difficulty of pinpointing what, in fact, culture is - either generally (but then it becomes too general), or specifically (but then, it seems tailored to each case, or, indeed, tautological).

Historically, the dynamic of nation-states using the formal and informal powers of the state to mold a national culture has been at least as much if not more of a phenomenon then some pre-existing cultural unity coming together organically to form a nation-state.  For example, the French Republic(s) took the geographic shape they took because those happened to be the lands that Capets, Valois and Bourbons happened to cobble together; but it was the republican nationalists who sanded the down the disparate groups of Bretons, Alsatians, Normans, Occitan and Italian speakers of various types, etc. into "Frenchmen"

[garbon]

Focusing on one data point to suit your purposes? Cool.

I haven't searched the policies of all US States, no.  I know the list for non-bilingual education in US states is more than 2 States, but that's pretty much irrelevant in itsefl without correlating it with the number of non english speakers in the particular State.  What I do know is that States who feel threatened by mass immigration from a different culture, mainly Spanish today, but I'm also seeing movement against building a Mosquee in some States/Counties.  Not only on the 9/11 site, but also in Tennessee.

It's hard to imagine a real multi-cultural state protesting against a symbol of difference.

I think that it would be a bad idea to judge a whole based on a few random anecdotes from a few states...but that's just me.

[Oexmelin]

I disagree - most nations were designed, quite consciously, and the US is definitely among those. 

States, institutions, constitutions were designed. But nations? This makes most sense if one takes the legalistic point of view of nations as states. And, indeed, there is a great temptation to make the slippage between states and nations, but I hold the terms to be dissimilar. And while nations can display themselves in various ways, can partake in shared mythologies, and projects, they do not seem to me to be "designed" (which suggests the idea of an author). Political projects can certainly give rise to a nation, but so does military conquest, acts of resistance, religious affiliation, etc. In most cases, it is precisely the interplay between self-identification and political definition that shape nations.

[Sheilbh]

The French Republic seems a rather particular example too, given the nature of French nationalism and identity and the way that's been tied into 'republicanism'.  That could possibly havehad a cultural effect on Quebec?

But I'd say France is a different example than relatively accidental nations like Britain, Belgium, Spain or even Italy.