Alex Salmond to let 16-year-olds vote in bid to secure independence

[The Minsky Moment]

[But they are all Jews.  Even if they disagree on minor things, at the core, they are all Jews.

They disgaree on very major things, including the very basis and legitimacy of the shared state.  The differences in "core values" as between say Haredim and secular liberals could not be greater.

White, english, protestants for the most part.  And they evolve into a sort of melting port where all cultures merge toward the dominant ones. 

At the time of the 1790 census, almost 20% were of African origin.  Another 15% or so were German, Dutch, French or Irish.  And among the WASPs, there were very significant cultural differences between Puritan New Englanders, Episcopalian New York merchants, and Pennsylvania Quakers; not to mention the vast cultural gulf between North and South that ended up in civil war.

[viper37]

But not Quebec itself? Interesting. Upon what would you base this claim?

There is no "claim", Quebec has well defined borders that are recognized by everyone.
Quebec occupies the territories and legislate all who inhabits it.  There is no denial about that.

Except for Labrador where we never agreed with the British decision, but couldn't oppose it as Quebec was not a country.  But that point is moot anyway.  It's one of the numerous injustice of Canada, but it will stay that way until such a time as we are all dust and maybe beyond that.
The only other claim would be about territorial waters.  According to the Constitution, apparently, the borders of Quebec in James Bay and Hudson bay do not extend beyond the lower limit of waters.

[Maximus]

So the injustice is that the federal government set that border without the consent of the Quebecois? Were any Quebecois living there at the time?

[viper37]

They disgaree on very major things, including the very basis and legitimacy of the shared state.  The differences in "core values" as between say Haredim and secular liberals could not be greater.

How many Israeli disagree that Israel should exist right now?

At the time of the 1790 census, almost 20% were of African origin.

Slaves don't really count, you know.  They had no rights at all.

Another 15% or so were German, Dutch, French or Irish.  And among the WASPs, there were very significant cultural differences between Puritan New Englanders, Episcopalian New York merchants, and Pennsylvania Quakers; not to mention the vast cultural gulf between North and South that ended up in civil war.

Having German, Dutch, French or Irish origins doesn't really matter.  At the time of Independance, certainly a majority felt as Americans.  AFAIK the US Constitution doesn't mention anything about German, Dutch, French or Irish.  They don't even specify that blacks are 'men'.

The rest are minor divisions between religions.   The vast cultural gulf between North and South wasn't so vast at the time.  It's not like the Northern merchants weren't selling or owning slaves:
William Henry Seward, Lincoln's anti-slavery Secretary of State during the Civil War, born in 1801, grew up in Orange County, New York, in a slave-owning family and amid neighbors who owned slaves if they could afford them. The family of Abraham Lincoln himself, when it lived in Pennsylvania in colonial times, owned slaves.

Over the years the North became more industrial and the South remained agricultural.  But in 1775?  I have doubts.
And I've been told more than once that after 1865, you were all Americans.  No more distinction.

[viper37]

So the injustice is that the federal government set that border without the consent of the Quebecois? Were any Quebecois living there at the time?

Not the Federal Government.  The British privy council.  The Feds only let the matter stand.  It was better to give a territory to Loyal Subjects of His Majesty than to have it fall in the hands of those French devils, I suppose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labrador#Boundary_dispute

Anyway, it's not like there would be anything done about it, even if Quebec was to seperate.  Most likely, the First Nations will want their own territory carved out of Labrador.

[Maximus]

Were any Quebecois living there at the time?

[viper37]

Were any Quebecois living there at the time?

It was never about the people, you know... But yeah, there must have been some French settlements there.  Québécois?  Hard to tell.  We didn't call ourselves Québécois until the 60s.  There were Canadiens, and there were English.  Most of the population of 1927 must have been native.  There weren't much French in norther Quebec until the 50s, when Duplessis developped the area.

[Maximus]

So you don't know. Ok, but if it wasn't about the people then what claim does Quebec have to that land?

[Ideologue]

So say the winner   I imagine the Mohawk and Iroquois had a different opinion.

It ain't a question of winner.
Regarding the Mohawks and Iroquois, again, those who converted to catholicism relocated near Montreal (present day Oka) and this is where there was some problems a few years ago.  Not that they were entirely wrong, but the method used to protest was not the good one.

Regarding the Iroquois, well, look at the Beaver Wars.  It's not a question of sacred grounds, really.

Okay, you're getting on my nerves with this Raz = Ide shit.

[Grey Fox]

So you don't know. Ok, but if it wasn't about the people then what claim does Quebec have to that land?

Before 1809 it was in Lower Canada. I think that's the claim.

[Maximus]

So the argument is that the British Government didn't have the right to alter the boundaries between its possessions?

[Zoupa]

The PQ ran the 1995 referendum saying many similar things.  It was revealed afterwards they intended to do a unilateral declaration of independence within days of a yes vote (and that France was prepared to recognize same).  I rather suspect something similar here.

I always found that process semi-retarded. If Quebec wants to become an independent state, no need for a referendum. Just have a vote in the national assembly.

There. Done.

[Razgovory]

Okay, you're getting on my nerves with this Raz = Ide shit.

You should be flattered.

[The Minsky Moment]

How many Israeli disagree that Israel should exist right now?

That's a very low bar for demonstrating the existence of a mono-culture.  Circular argument, really.

Slaves don't really count, you know.

 

At the time of Independance, certainly a majority felt as Americans.  AFAIK the US Constitution doesn't mention anything about German, Dutch, French or Irish. 

Of course it doesn't because the from the very beginning, the US was not designed as a mono-cultural nation.  That's the point.

You are now making a perfectly circular argument that every nation without a strong separatist movement can be said to be mono-cultural, because "culture" is you are defining "culture" merely as sharing a national affiliation or identity.

[Razgovory]

I don't know how many of the former colonists considered themselves "Americans" after the Revolution.  People were identifying with their home state more up until the Civil War.

Viper's arguments are becoming increasingly bizarre.