Alex Salmond to let 16-year-olds vote in bid to secure independence

Started by jimmy olsen, October 10, 2011, 01:23:35 PM

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Razgovory

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 12, 2011, 01:00:36 PM

That's a very low bar for demonstrating the existence of a mono-culture.  Circular argument, really.


That would also suggest Canada is a monoculture since the majority of Canadians believe that Canada should exist.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Oexmelin

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 12, 2011, 01:00:36 PM
Of course it doesn't because the from the very beginning, the US was not designed as a mono-cultural nation.  That's the point.

Very few were, for very few nations were "designed".

This is the usual problem in such debates.

Some will accuse others of glossing over differences internal to some nations - but then, one is left with the question as to what binds a nation together, instead of simply being an addition of individuals.  The easy way out is to turn to law, , because it can be described in the terms law itself provides to do so. But then it looks unsatisfactory to explain the interaction between people who care little about the wording of the law, and does little to explain the preexistence of nations. The hard way is to claim to look at culture - and then we are faced with the difficulty of pinpointing what, in fact, culture is - either generally (but then it becomes too general), or specifically (but then, it seems tailored to each case, or, indeed, tautological).
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garbon

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jimmy olsen

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garbon

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 12, 2011, 01:00:36 PM
Quote from: viper37 on October 12, 2011, 12:18:47 PM
How many Israeli disagree that Israel should exist right now?

That's a very low bar for demonstrating the existence of a mono-culture.  Circular argument, really.

QuoteSlaves don't really count, you know.

  :blink:

QuoteAt the time of Independance, certainly a majority felt as Americans.  AFAIK the US Constitution doesn't mention anything about German, Dutch, French or Irish. 

Of course it doesn't because the from the very beginning, the US was not designed as a mono-cultural nation.  That's the point.

You are now making a perfectly circular argument that every nation without a strong separatist movement can be said to be mono-cultural, because "culture" is you are defining "culture" merely as sharing a national affiliation or identity.

The world according to viper is an interesting place.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Grey Fox

Quote from: Maximus on October 12, 2011, 12:49:50 PM
So the argument is that the British Government didn't have the right to alter the boundaries between its possessions?

The British Gov has the right, the problem is when Canada achieve full independence, the Federal government didn't revisit the situation, still hasn't. Since Quebec isn't a country The Provincial Gov doesn't have any recourse other then saying it doesn't recognize the 1927 decisions, just like they do with the 1982 constitution.

And then, all this argument will get much more complicated once we include Nunatsiavut in the discussion.
Colonel Caliga is Awesome.

viper37

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 12, 2011, 01:00:36 PM
That's a very low bar for demonstrating the existence of a mono-culture.  Circular argument, really.
it's the one you gave me.  I'm simply asking how many Israelis believe their country shouldn't exist.  It sounds bizarre to me that someone emigrates and chooses to live in a such a country.

Quote
  :blink:
Ok, what I mean is that they had no say in the foundation of America, like the Indians.
Nobody asked the slaves to vote on independance, no one asked the Shawnees if they tought forming a new country with the Americans was a good idea for them.  No one asked the tribes beyond the Mississipi, in yet uncharted lands what they tought about it.
This is what I meant.  Not that there were no slaves.

To determine the foundation of a country, you have to look at the people who created it.  And that wasn't the black slaves, nor the indians.  So saying the US was a multi-cultural entity because there were indians and black slaves, wich were practically denied all rights in the US Colonies is a dubious argument, imho.

Quote
Of course it doesn't because the from the very beginning, the US was not designed as a mono-cultural nation.  That's the point.

You are now making a perfectly circular argument that every nation without a strong separatist movement can be said to be mono-cultural, because "culture" is you are defining "culture" merely as sharing a national affiliation or identity.
Well, a seperation movement usually occur when a distinct nation occupies a distinct territory.
Multiculturalism is the appreciation, acceptance or promotion of multiple cultures, applied to the demographic make-up of a specific place, usually at the organizational level, e.g. schools, businesses, neighborhoods, cities or nations

One could say it describes Canada, partly.  In theory, certainly.  It's Trudeau's dream, certainly.
In practice, lots of work to do.  But that's really not what I'm seeing in the US:
The melting pot is a metaphor for a heterogeneous society becoming more homogeneous, the different elements "melting together" into a harmonious whole with a common culture. It is particularly used to describe the assimilation of immigrants to the United States; the melting-together metaphor was in use by the 1780s.
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

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Razgovory

What more work do you think Canada need to do on the Multicultural front?  From your previous complaints it seems that what you want is everyone to speak French.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

viper37

Quote from: garbon on October 12, 2011, 01:27:15 PM
Focusing on one data point to suit your purposes? Cool.
I haven't searched the policies of all US States, no.  I know the list for non-bilingual education in US states is more than 2 States, but that's pretty much irrelevant in itsefl without correlating it with the number of non english speakers in the particular State.  What I do know is that States who feel threatened by mass immigration from a different culture, mainly Spanish today, but I'm also seeing movement against building a Mosquee in some States/Counties.  Not only on the 9/11 site, but also in Tennessee.

It's hard to imagine a real multi-cultural state protesting against a symbol of difference.
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

viper37

Quote from: Razgovory on October 12, 2011, 01:42:37 PM
What more work do you think Canada need to do on the Multicultural front?  From your previous complaints it seems that what you want is everyone to speak French.
take your pills Raz.  You're hallucinating again.
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

Razgovory

Quote from: viper37 on October 12, 2011, 01:46:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 12, 2011, 01:42:37 PM
What more work do you think Canada need to do on the Multicultural front?  From your previous complaints it seems that what you want is everyone to speak French.
take your pills Raz.  You're hallucinating again.

Okay, enlighten me.  What do you want from Multiculturalism?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Oexmelin on October 12, 2011, 01:13:09 PM
Very few were, for very few nations were "designed".

I disagree - most nations were designed, quite consciously, and the US is definitely among those.  Indeed, in the that specific case there was a long, open and extensive debate as to whether such a nation should come into being at all, and what the basis for such a project should be.  In other cases, the discussion was not quite as obvious and open, but it happened nonetheless.

QuoteSome will accuse others of glossing over differences internal to some nations - but then, one is left with the question as to what binds a nation together, instead of simply being an addition of individuals.  The easy way out is to turn to law, , because it can be described in the terms law itself provides to do so. But then it looks unsatisfactory to explain the interaction between people who care little about the wording of the law, and does little to explain the preexistence of nations. The hard way is to claim to look at culture - and then we are faced with the difficulty of pinpointing what, in fact, culture is - either generally (but then it becomes too general), or specifically (but then, it seems tailored to each case, or, indeed, tautological).

Historically, the dynamic of nation-states using the formal and informal powers of the state to mold a national culture has been at least as much if not more of a phenomenon then some pre-existing cultural unity coming together organically to form a nation-state.  For example, the French Republic(s) took the geographic shape they took because those happened to be the lands that Capets, Valois and Bourbons happened to cobble together; but it was the republican nationalists who sanded the down the disparate groups of Bretons, Alsatians, Normans, Occitan and Italian speakers of various types, etc. into "Frenchmen"
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

garbon

Quote from: viper37 on October 12, 2011, 01:46:19 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 12, 2011, 01:27:15 PM
Focusing on one data point to suit your purposes? Cool.
I haven't searched the policies of all US States, no.  I know the list for non-bilingual education in US states is more than 2 States, but that's pretty much irrelevant in itsefl without correlating it with the number of non english speakers in the particular State.  What I do know is that States who feel threatened by mass immigration from a different culture, mainly Spanish today, but I'm also seeing movement against building a Mosquee in some States/Counties.  Not only on the 9/11 site, but also in Tennessee.

It's hard to imagine a real multi-cultural state protesting against a symbol of difference.

I think that it would be a bad idea to judge a whole based on a few random anecdotes from a few states...but that's just me. :)
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Oexmelin

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 12, 2011, 01:48:33 PM
I disagree - most nations were designed, quite consciously, and the US is definitely among those. 

States, institutions, constitutions were designed. But nations? This makes most sense if one takes the legalistic point of view of nations as states. And, indeed, there is a great temptation to make the slippage between states and nations, but I hold the terms to be dissimilar. And while nations can display themselves in various ways, can partake in shared mythologies, and projects, they do not seem to me to be "designed" (which suggests the idea of an author). Political projects can certainly give rise to a nation, but so does military conquest, acts of resistance, religious affiliation, etc. In most cases, it is precisely the interplay between self-identification and political definition that shape nations.
Que le grand cric me croque !

Sheilbh

The French Republic seems a rather particular example too, given the nature of French nationalism and identity and the way that's been tied into 'republicanism'.  That could possibly havehad a cultural effect on Quebec?

But I'd say France is a different example than relatively accidental nations like Britain, Belgium, Spain or even Italy.
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