Wall Street protesters: We're in for the long haul

[Grallon]

Not sure how I feel about goals 1 and 2. Goal 3 makes sense although not sure of the usefulness of such a statement.

Are you saying the US has not in fact become a dysfunctional mess?  Or that the political establishment hasn't been bought lock, stock and barrel by money?




G.

[crazy canuck]

Goal 1 - what does live a normal life mean?

Goal 2 - OK, go ahead and spotlight it.  Provide some detail and how you want the problems you identify solved.  Corporations are teh evil doesnt quite cut it.

Goal 3 - Good, build a consensus of what should be done.  But you are going to have to do a better job at Goal number 2 before you can begin building a consensus. 

I miss the good old fashioned protests.

Person with loud speaker - What do we want?

crowd - X

Person with loud speaker - When do we want it?

crowd - now.

Back then the crowd knew why they were there.  Now its just a bunch of things are not going so well and damned if we know what to do about it. 

[The Minsky Moment]

The first two goals are metaphorical and the third concedes the point being argued against.

[HVC]

Back then the crowd knew why they were there.  Now its just a bunch of things are not going so well and damned if we know what to do about it. 

Protests now mean the exact same thing they did since the 60's. Bored pretty girls trying to "make a change" and they guys who want to get into their pants

[crazy canuck]

Back then the crowd knew why they were there.  Now its just a bunch of things are not going so well and damned if we know what to do about it. 

Protests now mean the exact same thing they did since the 60's. Bored pretty girls trying to "make a change" and they guys who want to get into their pants

I was going to say that but edited it out at the last moment.

[grumbler]

The first two goals are metaphorical and the third concedes the point being argued against.

1.  Yeah, I think people know that there are enormous numbers of people out of work/underemployed/under water on their mortgages.

2. Not a goal, just a polemic. 

3.  Not a goal, just an assertion without anything to support it, and no suggestion of action to be taken.

If this is the best definition of the goals of the movement, then I find it interesting that this author finds it interesting to see how many commentators, pro and con, suggest that the Occupy Wall Street movement lacks clear goals or focus.

[Razgovory]

Well the goals seem to be just to point things out.  That's sort of a goal.  A wishy-washy, pussy goal, but a goal of sorts.  I suppose if they pass the hat around I bet they can accomplish all of this pointing things out with a billboard.

[crazy canuck]

Well the goals seem to be just to point things out.  That's sort of a goal.  A wishy-washy, pussy goal, but a goal of sorts.  I suppose if they pass the hat around I bet they can accomplish all of this pointing things out with a billboard.

Good, then its time to pack up and go home.

[Admiral Yi]

The first goal is harmless but pointless, the second goal is looney tunes, the third is, as Joan said in other words, an admission of cluelessness.

[MadImmortalMan]

Are you saying the US has not in fact become a dysfunctional mess?  Or that the political establishment hasn't been bought lock, stock and barrel by money?

Good luck finding someplace that isn't.

[Ideologue]

Our Canadians appear to be living in some kind of Goddamned magical fairyland beyond the reach of the global economy.  I guess it's oil, but it might be that they've found a way to harness Quebecois disenchantment, which is basically like zero point energy.

[grumbler]

Our Canadians appear to be living in some kind of Goddamned magical fairyland beyond the reach of the global economy.  I guess it's oil, but it might be that they've found a way to harness Quebecois disenchantment, which is basically like zero point energy.

Or, it could be that some (two?) of them are delusional, or that they are lying.

[Neil]

Our Canadians appear to be living in some kind of Goddamned magical fairyland beyond the reach of the global economy.  I guess it's oil, but it might be that they've found a way to harness Quebecois disenchantment, which is basically like zero point energy.

Well, having laws and regulations helped us weather the storm.  And oil.  High commodity prices help Canada, and only the shitty parts of Canada have been hurt by the loss of manufacturing to the barbarian sectors of the world.

[Ideologue]

I was also hoping that you'd pick up on my implied slight to the Quebecois.

[Scipio]

I would assume that he was not the target the protestors were aiming at, in fact he seems to have been a supporter and is having to resign because of the loss of all the tourist revenue that has ceased to roll in.

It is a parable of our times.

I can see the reasoning behind his resignation which is rather sad:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/27/giles-fraser-resignation-dale-farm

Edit:  Good Lord, the CofE's ability to find doubt and division in all possible situations is just remarkable:

Church of England split over St Paul's handling of Occupy London protest

Regrets and recriminations may lead church to ditch its antiquated ways as senior official agonise over predicament


The good publicity generated by Rowan Williams in Zimbabwe has been negated. Photograph: Tsvangirayi Mukwazhi/AP

The Church of England, not for the first time, has been left ruing its handling of the protest outside St Paul's Cathedral, a situation in which it has been largely hapless. It did not ask for the protesters to pitch their tents next to one of its most important and symbolic buildings – or not semi-permanently anyway.

Yet the consequences of its agonised soul-searching have left it distinctly uncomfortable: trying to uphold free speech, bearing in mind the example of Christ's clearing out the money changers from the temple on the one hand, or accepting the advice of a health and safety official – who has now fallen sick with stress – on the other. Or "a total and complete shambles", as one senior church figure told the Guardian.

There was sympathy for the cathedral's predicament on the church's right wing and support from the left for the resigning canon Giles Fraser, but also near-universal criticism of the decision to shut the cathedral for the first time since the blitz, not all of it displaced to the responsibility of the demonstrators.

The church used to be more robust in its dealing with demonstrators outside its walls, as the collection of pikes and armour on the walls of the guardroom at Lambeth Palace, the archbishop of Canterbury's London residence, indicate, but it is centuries since it has had to get them down.

"It is very hard to take the temperature of the Church of England," said Paul Handley, editor of the Church Times. "In a poll last week we found 65% of church members believing it was right to welcome the protesters, but there are equally bound to be lots of churchgoers out in the country who think it is right to take a firm hand to them. I suspect whatever people think of the demonstrators though, most will think the church has taken an utterly wrong approach to dealing with the situation. It is such a shame: we have just had our best publicity for ages over Rowan Williams challenging Robert Mugabe to his face and now this comes up and clearly damages the church's reputation once again."

In an indication of the often highly politicised vituperation among some in the church following the long-running dispute over gay clergy – in which Fraser was on the liberal side – some evangelicals reacted with glee that he was resigning. Gavin Drake, the bishop of Lichfield's press officer, wrote on his blog: "Goodbye Giles Fraser, you won't be missed. Giles Fraser is a liberal when it comes to what he believes, but a complete bigot when it comes to the beliefs and views of others ... His appointment was wrong." He claimed his remarks were not personal.

Toby Young, the polemicist, broke off from running his west London free school to claim in the Telegraph that Fraser had single-handedly cost the cathedral hundreds of thousands of pounds in lost revenue. "Sod your colleagues, eh, Dr Fraser? The important thing is that you hold on to your reputation as a man of principle."

More liberal clergy rallied to his support and sympathisers set up a Save Giles Fraser Twitter feed. "The Church of England risks damaging its reputation for a generation. The church has not thought this through," the Rev George Pitcher, who was sacked in the summer as the archbishop of Canterbury's media adviser, told Premier Christian Radio.

Today's decision to reopen the cathedral to worshippers while the demonstrators are still outside seems to undermine the dean and chapter's decision to close the building a week ago for health and safety reasons. The decision was compounded by legal advice that the clergy should not speak to the demonstrators, which undermined the chances of a negotiated settlement.

When the dust settles, the church's authorities may have to review the traditional – and historic, dating back centuries – dean and chapter management structures for its great buildings, over which archbishops, and indeed diocesan bishops, have very little say. Making the church more savvy in its dealings with the outside world of protesters and insistent media demands may prove more difficult, particularly as it has just lost the services of one of its best communicators.

Having said that Rowan's stuff from Zimbabwe has been pretty good.

The fruits of heresy and schism.  CofE can suck it.  American Episcopal church, by its own fake numbers, has dipped below 2 million churchgoers.