Baku, or the Map Game

[dps]

It always amazes me when I read of the plans to open up a front against the Soviet Union, as if the Allies didn't already have enough on their plate.

I think a more accurate description at the time would have been the British Empire and Dominions, oh and that annoying Frenchmen with a few dozen followers.

This was being planned before the fall of France.  The French were the ones who were most enthusiastic about it, which is ironic considering how bad the French bomber force was, even compared to the British bombers of the time.  It's been a while since I've read much about this, but IIRC the French bombers involved would have been F.222's.  Look 'em up, and have a laugh. 

And yeah, they would have based in Iraq and/or Syria and overflown Turkey and/or Iran.  The attitude seems to be that if Turkey and Iran didn't give them permission to overfly their territory, the French and British would have done it anyway and then basically have told the Turks and Iranian, "To bad, whatcha gonna do 'bout it?"

Oh, and BTW, this wouldn't have been the Western Allies and the Nazis teaming up to take out the Commies;  this would have been the British and French taking on both the Nazis and Soviets at the same time.  Well, actually, the hope seemed to have been that the Allies would destroy Soveit oil production and the Soviets would just suck it up and say, "Oh, Ok" and not actually go to war over it.  A lot of Allied strategy before the fall of France was pretty delusional. 

[dps]

[I think a more accurate description would be the greatest man of the twentieth century and his people.

IMO, de Gaulle ranks with Princess Di as one of the most over-rated people of the 20th century.

[KRonn]

Yeah, scary plans, delusional. Sheesh..

[Neil]

I think a more accurate description would be the greatest man of the twentieth century and his people.

DeGaulle is largely meh in the grand scheme of things.  He was irrelevant during the Great Challenge of the Twentieth Century.  He reorganized France, but other men had already done the work of starting France towards the European Enterprise.

[Sheilbh]

DeGaulle is largely meh in the grand scheme of things.  He was irrelevant during the Great Challenge of the Twentieth Century.  He reorganized France, but other men had already done the work of starting France towards the European Enterprise.

First he saved his nation's soul, and in so many ways, during the Second World War.  Then, after the war and especially during Algeria, he saved his nation from herself.  No-one in the 20th century has such achievements by their name.

[Lettow77]

I for one love DeGaulle. Somebody the left and the right can rally around, the romantic hero of his nation..
the very personification of france, eee..

[Neil]

DeGaulle is largely meh in the grand scheme of things.  He was irrelevant during the Great Challenge of the Twentieth Century.  He reorganized France, but other men had already done the work of starting France towards the European Enterprise.

First he saved his nation's soul, and in so many ways, during the Second World War.  Then, after the war and especially during Algeria, he saved his nation from herself.  No-one in the 20th century has such achievements by their name.

Richard Nixon.
FDR.
Winston Churchill.

DeGaulle worked in one small country.  You might as well say that some US state governor is the greatest man of the 20th century.  The French soul was irrelevant during WWII, just as the French themselves were.

[Lettow77]

Neil, 'small' country seems to overstate it. France's population is fairly huge..

[grumbler]

First he saved his nation's soul, and in so many ways, during the Second World War.  Then, after the war and especially during Algeria, he saved his nation from herself.  No-one in the 20th century has such achievements by their name.

Lech Walesa. 

The man ended communism in Europe (and the USSR, if you don't think it is part of Europe).

But Walesa is DeGaulle's only competition in the 20C for single-handed feats.

[Razgovory]

The fallacy of strategic bombing was not evident in 1940, the politicians having spent so many years drinking the bomber enthusiasts' kool-aid.

Hell, for years after the war, some people still believed that the Allied Bomber Offensive had been decisive.

Had the Brits bombed the Caucasus and failed, they would have come up with a million reasons why it hadn't worked, and not one of the would have been "strategic bombing, by its nature, is attritional and not decisive."

You think atomic weaponry changed this or not?

[grumbler]

You think atomic weaponry changed this or not?

Since there was no atomic weaponry in 1940, no.

[Razgovory]

You think atomic weaponry changed this or not?

Since there was no atomic weaponry in 1940, no.

Gee thanks Grumbler.  I respect your opinion and then you do this to me.

[The Brain]

All sorts of plans are suggested, only some are adopted.

Madonna and Angelina.

[Josquius]

Pre ww2 scales were just so weirdly different...
Strange period. The technology and so much was modern yet the thinking...still very 19th century. This is a very Napoleonic way of thinking only with bombers replacing warships.

[Admiral Yi]

First he saved his nation's soul, and in so many ways, during the Second World War.

How, by fostering a myth of national resistance?  Other occupied countries managed to do quite well without one.