What will become of the eurozone?

[Sheilbh]

Sympathetic to the retard protesters, not the country per se.

I'm sympathetic to all protesters including the Tea Party.  I support protests in general, it doesn't mean I agree with them in the (very rare) occassions when a protest can be said to have a coherent agenda.

[Razgovory]

Sympathetic to the retard protesters, not the country per se.

I'm sympathetic to all protesters including the Tea Party.  I support protests in general, it doesn't mean I agree with them in the (very rare) occassions when a protest can be said to have a coherent agenda.

This seems weird to me.

[Admiral Yi]

I'm sympathetic to all protesters including the Tea Party.  I support protests in general, it doesn't mean I agree with them in the (very rare) occassions when a protest can be said to have a coherent agenda.

Well, I'm curious where you got the notion that Germany's actions have rendered Greece sympathetic.  Sympathetic to whom?

[Josquius]

When it comes down to it Greece is just a tiny percentage of the EU economy.
If Spain gets worse and Italy starts going down...then we could be pretty fucked. But with Just Greece (whats up with Ireland? Have they sorted their debt?) its not a long term danger.

[Admiral Yi]

I don't get why Spain is getting beat up along with the others.  Debt is 78% of GDP, lower I think than Germany.

[Sheilbh]

Well, I'm curious where you got the notion that Germany's actions have rendered Greece sympathetic.  Sympathetic to whom?

I think the German government's tended to choose the worst action at every given moment.  When decisiveness was needed there was dithering, when a decision had been reached it was ineffective and often edged with contradictions from senior figures in the German government.  I know there were real constitutional problems for Germany but I don't think the government's handled it well and that they've, if anything exacerbated the situation.

By contrst the Greeks have gone through hell.  They've passed truly painful austerity several times over the last 2 years, this government wasn't the one who fudged the figures and they've had to deal with massive uncertainty when despite all this because, due to often domestic political reasons, each tranche of funding is subject to new Euro infighting (normally, though not always, led by the German government).  I think it's dawning on Europe that Greece isn't a debt problem.  Greece is a far bigger problem involving the debt and a sclerotic economy.  All Europe's offering Greece is more cuts and tax rises with no plan or idea of how to help fix the Greek economy.  It's not enough simply to inflict pain if there's no idea of how to support growth.

Last tranche I remember hearing European leaders recognise this and talk about the need for a 'Marshall plan for Greece'.  This time we've only got more tax rises, more tax cuts and a Finnish tantrum.  The Greeks meanwhile are passing shock therapy reforms.  It's hard not to feel sympathy for Greece now.

[Admiral Yi]

   Answer: just me.

[Sheilbh]

  Answer: just me.

Not really.  As I say the Eurozone itself has gone from 'sell your islands!' to a 'Marshall plan for Greece'.  It would just be nice if they were able to flesh out those ideas a bit.

[Admiral Yi]

Not really.  As I say the Eurozone itself has gone from 'sell your islands!' to a 'Marshall plan for Greece'.  It would just be nice if they were able to flesh out those ideas a bit.

Eh, when you say "the Eurozone itself has gone from sell your islands to a Marshall plan for Greece,"  do you mean the EU bureacracy, the heads of states of the Eurozone countries and their legislatures, all have come to a concensus on a Marhall plan, and they're presumably just working out the details, or do you mean one person wrote an op-ed you agreed with?

[Razgovory]

I don't think you can get a pass on debt if you say it was the previous governments fault.  I feel more sorry for the a Germans, who kept their house in order and keep having to give handouts to their spendthrift Greek cousins.  The Germans are framed the bad guys because they give their cousins a budget, tell them to lay off the pot, and force them to get a job.

[Sheilbh]

Eh, when you say "the Eurozone itself has gone from sell your islands to a Marshall plan for Greece,"  do you mean the EU bureacracy, the heads of states of the Eurozone countries and their legislatures, all have come to a concensus on a Marhall plan, and they're presumably just working out the details, or do you mean one person wrote an op-ed you agreed with?

The Eurozone leaders - they're mostly Parliamentary systems so the legislature goes with that.  The Commission and bureaucracy just deliver that policy.  The first draft said 'Marshall plan for Greece' the final draft didn't and I think the policy's still being worked out and probably won't be delivered for a few years. 

I think the plan is to keep cutting (unfortunately the Greek economy keeps shrinking more than was projected) and start shock therapy reforms to regulations and the labour market (this has already started) and then channel billions of infrastructure to help boost growth in a few years.  It all seems a bit long-winded to me and not necessarily going to help the Greeks.

[Martinus]

I don't think you can get a pass on debt if you say it was the previous governments fault.  I feel more sorry for the a Germans, who kept their house in order and keep having to give handouts to their spendthrift Greek cousins.  The Germans are framed the bad guys because they give their cousins a budget, tell them to lay off the pot, and force them to get a job.

I understand you also support similar attitudes from the Tea Party congress members who refused to increase the US debt cap?

[Sheilbh]

I don't think you can get a pass on debt if you say it was the previous governments fault.  I feel more sorry for the a Germans, who kept their house in order and keep having to give handouts to their spendthrift Greek cousins.  The Germans are framed the bad guys because they give their cousins a budget, tell them to lay off the pot, and force them to get a job.

The Germans were breaking the rules for a long time too.

I'm not saying you can pass on the debt, there probably needs to be a restructuring of some sort.  The problem in Ireland is debt.  The problem in Spain, Italy and Portugal is growth with a bit of debt.  The problem with Greece is both on a massive scale.  Portraying this as some sort of morality play isn't helpful.

[Razgovory]

I don't think you can get a pass on debt if you say it was the previous governments fault.  I feel more sorry for the a Germans, who kept their house in order and keep having to give handouts to their spendthrift Greek cousins.  The Germans are framed the bad guys because they give their cousins a budget, tell them to lay off the pot, and force them to get a job.

I understand you also support similar attitudes from the Tea Party congress members who refused to increase the US debt cap?

Tea Party members tended to come from red states, the states that typically get more federal money then they take in.  Not to mention they identified with the party that created a vast debt over the last decade.  With out raising so much as a peep.  So it's more analogous to your cousin blowing all his money on a stereo system and they raising a stink when you pay the utility bills.

[Razgovory]

I don't think you can get a pass on debt if you say it was the previous governments fault.  I feel more sorry for the a Germans, who kept their house in order and keep having to give handouts to their spendthrift Greek cousins.  The Germans are framed the bad guys because they give their cousins a budget, tell them to lay off the pot, and force them to get a job.

The Germans were breaking the rules for a long time too.

I'm not saying you can pass on the debt, there probably needs to be a restructuring of some sort.  The problem in Ireland is debt.  The problem in Spain, Italy and Portugal is growth with a bit of debt.  The problem with Greece is both on a massive scale.  Portraying this as some sort of morality play isn't helpful.

What Rules did the Germans break?