Stamp out anti-science in US politics

[Viking]

There is a spiritual world? Prove it.

Since it is a concept that only exists inside human brains that would be pretty difficult.  But it would be pretty easy to point out its almost universal presence in human cultures.

Well, since the spiritual world has an effect on the material world you can measure it's effect. FMRI studies into the function of the human brain is rapidly converting all neuroscientists to atheism (most famously Sam Harris) since supposedly real spirituality affects the brain identically to constructed false spirituality.

What about human cultures signifies the presence of a real spiritual world as opposed to a fictional spiritual world?

At what point did animal apes become spiritual humans? Which primate had access to the spirit world that his/her mother did not? What was the difference between them?

[Viking]

There is a spiritual world? Prove it.

Only after you prove the existence of love, hatred, friendship, envy...

Why?

To be honest Love, Hatred, Friendship and Envy are merely words we use to describe a set of behaviors which each person subjectively considers similar and classifies as such. So, I don't think there is anything that is Love, Hatred, Friendship or Envy. So I don't think I actually need to prove the existence of something that I don't think exists to get Valmy to prove something he asserts that exists.

[Valmy]

Well, since the spiritual world has an effect on the material world you can measure it's effect. FMRI studies into the function of the human brain is rapidly converting all neuroscientists to atheism (most famously Sam Harris) since supposedly real spirituality affects the brain identically to constructed false spirituality.

What about human cultures signifies the presence of a real spiritual world as opposed to a fictional spiritual world?

At what point did animal apes become spiritual humans? Which primate had access to the spirit world that his/her mother did not? What was the difference between them?

I do not get the distinction between real spirituality and false spirituality.  I do not get the distinction between real or fictional spiritual world.  All human cultures deal with spirituality to a ridiculous degree.  Obviously it is an important part of the human experience.

As for the last part I am sure there might be something physical about it but I get the impression it is abstract thinking and language.

[Viking]

Simply put: Spirituality is exploration of the internal life of people.  It has no power at all on material external stuff....I mean beyond the brain's ability to effect stuff.

Eh, so spirituality has nothing to do with the non-material world of things like gods, ghosts, demons etc. etc. It is the functioning of the material brain?

[Valmy]

Eh, so spirituality has nothing to do with the non-material world of things like gods, ghosts, demons etc. etc. It is the functioning of the material brain?

Um of course it does.  Those things are spiritual symbols.

[Viking]

Yes, but why Jesus and not Muhammad or Buddah or Odin or Zeus or The Flying Spaghetti Monster?

At some arbitrary point in the Bible you would have to presume the writers went from talking about stuff in symbolic or broad terms (by six days it really meant 14 billion years blah blah) and started writing about real events.  Like at Abraham or something.

And I guess it is sorta true that at certain points real events are described in the Bible.  I mean there was such a thing as the Assyrian Empire and Kingdom of Egypt.

Yes, but the Bible does assert the factualness of the great flood, the 7 day creation and the existence of Pi-Ramses and The Assyrian Empire. The only reason you know which is "spiritual" and factual is that historians and scientists have demonstrated much of the BS in the bible was untrue.

[Viking]

Well, since the spiritual world has an effect on the material world you can measure it's effect. FMRI studies into the function of the human brain is rapidly converting all neuroscientists to atheism (most famously Sam Harris) since supposedly real spirituality affects the brain identically to constructed false spirituality.

What about human cultures signifies the presence of a real spiritual world as opposed to a fictional spiritual world?

At what point did animal apes become spiritual humans? Which primate had access to the spirit world that his/her mother did not? What was the difference between them?

I do not get the distinction between real spirituality and false spirituality.  I do not get the distinction between real or fictional spiritual world.  All human cultures deal with spirituality to a ridiculous degree.  Obviously it is an important part of the human experience.

As for the last part I am sure there might be something physical about it but I get the impression it is abstract thinking and language.

False spirituality is invented to work as a control. To see if the effects of supposedly true spirituality is any different from false spirituality. Basically, if the fake stuff gives the same result as the real stuff then the supposedly real stuff is fake as well. e.g. the god helmet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

[Viking]

Eh, so spirituality has nothing to do with the non-material world of things like gods, ghosts, demons etc. etc. It is the functioning of the material brain?

Um of course it does.  Those things are spiritual symbols.

OK, but are gods, ghosts and demons anything more than the symbolic creations of the mind?

[Valmy]

Yes, but the Bible does assert the factualness of the great flood, the 7 day creation and the existence of Pi-Ramses and The Assyrian Empire. The only reason you know which is "spiritual" and factual is that historians and scientists have demonstrated much of the BS in the bible was untrue.

Yeah the Bible was never intended as a factual document like say, the Greek Historians were trying to write factual histories.  Heck even the Roman era gospels were not intended to be that...the writers would take on the identity of the one of the apostles in order to put their spin on the story.  I mean I seriously doubt whoever wrote Matthew really had evidence of Herod massacring babies so he wrote it down to preserve a fact...he was trying to link Jesus to Moses.

[Valmy]

OK, but are gods, ghosts and demons anything more than the symbolic creations of the mind?

Nope.

[Valmy]

False spirituality is invented to work as a control. To see if the effects of supposedly true spirituality is any different from false spirituality. Basically, if the fake stuff gives the same result as the real stuff then the supposedly real stuff is fake as well. e.g. the god helmet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

Hey that is pretty awesome.  Thanks.

[Viking]

Yeah the Bible was never intended as a factual document like say, the Greek Historians were trying to write factual histories.  Heck even the Roman era gospels were not intended to be that...the writers would take on the identity of the one of the apostles in order to put their spin on the story.  I mean I seriously doubt whoever wrote Matthew really had evidence of Herod massacring babies so he wrote it down to preserve a fact...he was trying to link Jesus to Moses.

How do you know that and how can you tell the factual from the spiritual bits other than by putting the different bits to the test of truth? (rendering the untrue bits spiritual).

The bible can't lose. The old Hebrews and Greeks could have written anything they wanted and if they got it right then it was prophetic, if it was untrue it was spiritual. How is that different from the oracle of delphi or the sybyll?

[Viking]

OK, but are gods, ghosts and demons anything more than the symbolic creations of the mind?

Nope.

So, if all humans died tomorrow and no more functioning human brains existed would the spiritual world cease to exist?

[Valmy]

How do you know that and how can you tell the factual from the spiritual bits other than by putting the different bits to the test of truth? (rendering the untrue bits spiritual).

Because, IMO, the factual bits are only factual by coincidence.  Even when they are used, like Herod, they are spiritual symbols.

The bible can't lose. The old Hebrews and Greeks could have written anything they wanted and if they got it right then it was prophetic, if it was untrue it was spiritual. How is that different from the oracle of delphi or the sybyll?

What are you thinking of here?  When did the Old Hebrews predict anything and get it right?

[Viking]

Yes, but the Bible does assert the factualness of the great flood, the 7 day creation and the existence of Pi-Ramses and The Assyrian Empire. The only reason you know which is "spiritual" and factual is that historians and scientists have demonstrated much of the BS in the bible was untrue.

Yeah the Bible was never intended as a factual document like say, the Greek Historians were trying to write factual histories.  Heck even the Roman era gospels were not intended to be that...the writers would take on the identity of the one of the apostles in order to put their spin on the story.  I mean I seriously doubt whoever wrote Matthew really had evidence of Herod massacring babies so he wrote it down to preserve a fact...he was trying to link Jesus to Moses.

There are some claims by the gospel writers that have been shown to be provably false. The two most obvious are the fact that Nazareth was not settled at the time of Jesus birth and there was no massacre of the babes by herod.

Jesus' supposed diciples were inventing stories about his life to link him to prophecy, it's good you admit that. I find that to be evidence of a post fact forgery.