Sen on the future of capitalism

[Hansmeister]

Never mind that Capitalism isn't at fault for the crisis of the moment. Dodgy mortgages and other bad lending \= Capitalism. The heroes of socialism and mixed economies see their chance at the brass ring and they are going to go for it.

Particularly since those dodgy mortages were mostly a creation of the gov't to begin with.

[Evil Spock]

Never mind that Capitalism isn't at fault for the crisis of the moment. Dodgy mortgages and other bad lending \= Capitalism. The heroes of socialism and mixed economies see their chance at the brass ring and they are going to go for it.

Particularly since those dodgy mortages were mostly a creation of the gov't to begin with.

Yet somehow the snakeoil of more government intervention is being sold as the 'cure'.

[KRonn]

Never mind that Capitalism isn't at fault for the crisis of the moment. Dodgy mortgages and other bad lending \= Capitalism. The heroes of socialism and mixed economies see their chance at the brass ring and they are going to go for it.

Particularly since those dodgy mortages were mostly a creation of the gov't to begin with.

I've been waiting for Congress to annonce an internal investigation of itself, and at least two Presidential administrations. Or maybe, the US auto execs could grill Congress members on their wasteful practices, out of control spending, pork spending,  incompetence and errors on noticing financial problems before things hit the fan, and more.... you know, the way Congresss grilled the auto execs.  Hehe...

[Valmy]

It is not so much that I demand militant ideological clinging to unfettered capitalism (whatever the fuck that is), it is more that whenever people say it is time to change the system their changes tend to be worse than the disease.  In fact they are usually the same old changes we tried 80 years ago.

The very idea that France, Germany, and Japan should somehow be seen as stronger economies than the US is laughable anyway.  They have not exactly been doing great the past 20 years or so you know.  If there is a post-Capitalist system I have my doubts it would resemble a having a few massive Japanese style conglomerates dominating the economy.

[Valmy]

The economic system that is usually known as capitalism is prone to cyclical collapses. This one is just the result of decades and decades of the US government trying to contain what would be market corrections (the recessions of the 90s and early 2000s were very weak because of these efforts). As a result, we're now getting 30+ years of accumulated problems falling on our heads.

I giggle at your conclusion this means the government should do even MORE to contain market forces.

'The US economy collapsed as a result of the US goverment trying to control market forces, as a result I conclude the US government should do even more to contain them.'

I also see no real difference between the 'Anglo-Saxon' model we have and what the French or the Germans do...we simply have slightly lower taxes.  If the secret to prosperity is simply having really high taxes that might be a difficult political pill for the American public to swallow.

[Habsburg]

I just adore this thread!

[PDH]

you always had people who were taken care of, people who banded together to «earn» their collective living, people who shared things freely, etc.

Has this been "successful" on a large scale, or was it always on a more micro/local level?

Not sure this is the point, as it was argued that there were objective laws of reality - the fact that such laws do not work with small scale human cultures show us that perhaps they are not as clear-cut as thought to be.

Human nature is a wonderful argument, but there are too many counter-examples of such things as "innate greed" to show that what is actually being argued about is that such cultural values are important within the culture - not universals at all.

[The Minsky Moment]

I don't see the value in arguments about nature.

As a practical matter, there is no known alternative to capitalism that works in terms of achieving the goals most people in the present find desirable.  It isn't even close.

However, capitalism is a pretty big tent as far as systemic design goes.  So even if we aren't going to abandon it, there is still to talk about in terms of what kinds of rules and institutions we want going forward.

[garbon]

Not sure this is the point, as it was argued that there were objective laws of reality - the fact that such laws do not work with small scale human cultures show us that perhaps they are not as clear-cut as thought to be.

Human nature is a wonderful argument, but there are too many counter-examples of such things as "innate greed" to show that what is actually being argued about is that such cultural values are important within the culture - not universals at all.

I can't hold onto my metanarratives? ???

[Queequeg]

I don't advocate the abolition of charity, simply of redistribution of wealth by means of force. That is what socialism denies: volitional choice. It teaches that an individual 'owes' society without ever defining what that really means: everyone except you is entitled to your work.

This is not how they/I would see things(by Socialism I take it you mean everything Redder than Rapture).  No economic man is an island; even your most innovative member of society succeeds due to the thousands or millions 'below' him that make him possible. Even John Galt needed a baker. 

I'd also argue that your kind of Market Liberalism has yet to provide much beyond the occasional hasty, unegalitarian bubble  that collapses at the cost of global stability.  I don't think the world could afford another Great Depression, as it is I am concerned about this recessions' plausible impact upon the least stable parts of the world.

Spock=Habbaku, right?

[Queequeg]

Never mind that Capitalism isn't at fault for the crisis of the moment. Dodgy mortgages and other bad lending \= Capitalism. The heroes of socialism and mixed economies see their chance at the brass ring and they are going to go for it.

Particularly since those dodgy mortages were mostly a creation of the gov't to begin with.

If Govt-inspired mortgages were the majority culprit, why are relatively free markets in Spain, Ireland and Eastern Europe falling like lead zeppelins?  Why does the IMF currently list countries with serious government oversight of the banking sector (Turkey, Brazil) as a plus in the medium term?

[Tiamat]

I don't think the world could afford another Great Depression, as it is I am concerned about this recessions' plausible impact upon the least stable parts of the world.

The world can withstand far more than another Great Depression.

[Queequeg]

If the Natbols take power in Russia than multi-cellular life on this planet wouldn't be around for long in any recognizable form.  This is a serious possibility.

[Tiamat]

If the Natbols take power in Russia than multi-cellular life on this planet wouldn't be around for long in any recognizable form.  This is a serious possibility.

No, it's not a serious possibility. That you'd suggest this speaks ill of your mental health.

[Habbaku]

Spock=Habbaku, right

Who the fuck are you?