Finally, the gub'mint is aware of the Canadian menace

[Oexmelin]

I have some sympathy for your father Oex, but really if you lose your cool at the border I think you'd know what might happen.  It was compounded by the fact your father was on a deadline that he missed, but that was not the border's fault.

Sorry, I do not qualify saying «Could you be a little bit more polite, please» as «losing your cool», just like I do qualify detaining someone needlessly and threatening him to arrest him with handcuffs for refusing to cooperate an abuse of power. And if asking someone to be polite is «asking for trouble», then I question where our moral compass is.

[Berkut]

I suppose I do - and certainly the forums rather tired penchant for a group of people latching onto the latest bitch about the US is well known - including the people always involved, and their typically quick resot to name calling and such when someone challenges their assumptions.

You are right - the version from the guards in question won't be the entire story either - but since they are not the ones []ipersonally[/i] affected by whatever happened, they are more likely to be telling the complete story, although that is not by any means certain. What is certain is that we don't have their story at all, fair or not.

Now, lots of people have had something happen to them with officials in all kinds of contexts. I wonder what percentage of the situations, if an outside observer objectively evaluated them, would end up with the conclusion that the people involved were largely blameless? I don't know the answer, but I bet it is rather rare.

And I never said anyone MUST be exaggerating, I said they sounded like they were and invited more detail to show that they were not - the response was an immediate resort to personal attacks on me, as you have just done in your post. How my status on the forum could possibly ahve any bearing on border security and hassle is rather beyond me, in any case.

[Berkut]

I have some sympathy for your father Oex, but really if you lose your cool at the border I think you'd know what might happen.  It was compounded by the fact your father was on a deadline that he missed, but that was not the border's fault.

Sorry, I do not qualify saying «Could you be a little bit more polite, please» as «losing your cool»,

I would - it is clearly a challenge. Why would you say that to someone? If they are not being polite, do you think asking them to be polite is going to make them become polite?

Talking back to law enforcement never goes well. Shrug. I bet it works the same even if you are going into Canada. If some border patrol guy is being short or rude, making some smart ass comment about how he could be more polite is going to just make him decide that you have something to hide.

[Oexmelin]

You are right - the version from the guards in question won't be the entire story either - but since they are not the ones []ipersonally[/i] affected by whatever happened, they are more likely to be telling the complete story, although that is not by any means certain. What is certain is that we don't have their story at all, fair or not.

You think border guards have no stake in trying to portray themselves as blameless ?

I don't know the answer, but I bet it is rather rare.

That's the thing. We don't know the answer either, but we bet it is not that rare. We have offered anecdotes and personnal experiences, you have offered your gut feeling. It is not like your gut feeling is inherently more credible than isolated anecdotes.

immediate resort to personal attacks on me, as you have just done in your post. How my status on the forum could possibly ahve any bearing on border security and hassle is rather beyond me, in any case.

Where ? 

[garbon]

making some smart ass comment about how he could be more polite is going to just make him decide that you have something to hide.

Actually, I think he'd take it personally and start acting like an ass. Although usually one doesn't have to do much of anything to get law enforcement to act like asses.

[Oexmelin]

I would - it is clearly a challenge. Why would you say that to someone? If they are not being polite, do you think asking them to be polite is going to make them become polite?

So if any sort of people in authority treats you like shit, the correct behaviour is to smile and say you're sorry ? How can that be considered appropriate ?

[Barrister]

To try to be fair to borderguards, they have a fairly tough job.

They have to deal with hundreds or thousands of people per day (well, maybe not up here...).  They know that illegal substances get smuggled through every day, but all they have to go by are people's reactions to the questions they ask.   It's hardly scientific, but its all they've got.  If they're asking weird questions its probably not your specific answer they're interested in, but in the manner in which you answer it.

Plus any job where you have to deal with the public day in and day out is going to wear on you.

So Oex, you're right.  I would hope that a borderguard would have a thick skin and continue to deal with your father in a calm and impartial manner.   Berkut is right being asked to be polite is a slight insult, but peace officers should be able to rise above it.  That officer sounds like he over-reacted, but that needs to be considered in comparison to your fathers weekly cross-border trips over the years.

[Berkut]

You are right - the version from the guards in question won't be the entire story either - but since they are not the ones []ipersonally[/i] affected by whatever happened, they are more likely to be telling the complete story, although that is not by any means certain. What is certain is that we don't have their story at all, fair or not.

You think border guards have no stake in trying to portray themselves as blameless ?

No, I think border guards have no stake in randomly screwing with people "needlessly", so stories that they do so I take with a grain of salt, since the people the story is about are generally trying to portray themselves as poor victims of some officious thug.

Then you dig a little bit and almost always find out that they did something wrong, reacted badly, and are now trying to blame it on someone else, and in fact it was not needless at all.

[Barrister]

I would - it is clearly a challenge. Why would you say that to someone? If they are not being polite, do you think asking them to be polite is going to make them become polite?

So if any sort of people in authority treats you like shit, the correct behaviour is to smile and say you're sorry ? How can that be considered appropriate ?

It's reality.  If you're in an unequal power relationship (I don't care if its teacher-student, border guard-border crosser, or judge-lawyer) if you're being treated like shit the best reaction is to smile and apologize.

Its not fair, but its how the world works.

Now if the behaviour is truely abominable there may be recourse later on, but its never a good idea to call someone on that bad behaviour.

[Jacob]

  Poor show JAcob.

Berkut rarely if ever goes into "full troll" mode.  This is how he has a good faith discussion.  You know that.

Whatever.  His hyperbole about hysteria in response to personal stories, his casting of aspersions at everyone and everything is puerile and tiresome.

[Berkut]

I would - it is clearly a challenge. Why would you say that to someone? If they are not being polite, do you think asking them to be polite is going to make them become polite?

So if any sort of people in authority treats you like shit, the correct behaviour is to smile and say you're sorry ? How can that be considered appropriate ?

If a border guard treats me like shit, I certainly am not going to call them on it, no. Why would I? What would there be to gain?

But my point is that I suspect that your dad was not "treated like shit", but rather got smart with some guard trying to do his shitty job.

That is not certain, and of course he is your dad, so you are going to believe his version of the story. I am just saying that in 9/10 cases, the *real* version of the story is rather different than the "I was minding my own business when the officer for no reason started hassling me!"

Maybe your dad is the 1/10.

[Berkut]

  Poor show JAcob.

Berkut rarely if ever goes into "full troll" mode.  This is how he has a good faith discussion.  You know that.

Whatever.  His hyperbole about hysteria in response to personal stories, his casting of aspersions at everyone and everything is puerile and tiresome.

I ahve not casted aspersions on anyone. You say this yet of course it is always in response to my posts questioning your assumptions, without any actual example.

The only making this personal and jumping into the gutter is you. Why is that?

[derspiess]

It's reality.  If you're in an unequal power relationship (I don't care if its teacher-student, border guard-border crosser, or judge-lawyer) if you're being treated like shit the best reaction is to smile and apologize.

Its not fair, but its how the world works.

Now if the behaviour is truely abominable there may be recourse later on, but its never a good idea to call someone on that bad behaviour.

QFT.  Regardless of whether you think you're superior to the person actually holding all the cards in the situation, discretion is the better part of valor.  Pick your damned battles.

[Oexmelin]

To try to be fair to borderguards, they have a fairly tough job.

They have to deal with hundreds or thousands of people per day (well, maybe not up here...).  They know that illegal substances get smuggled through every day, but all they have to go by are people's reactions to the questions they ask.   It's hardly scientific, but its all they've got.  If they're asking weird questions its probably not your specific answer they're interested in, but in the manner in which you answer it.

Plus any job where you have to deal with the public day in and day out is going to wear on you.

So Oex, you're right.  I would hope that a borderguard would have a thick skin and continue to deal with your father in a calm and impartial manner.   Berkut is right being asked to be polite is a slight insult, but peace officers should be able to rise above it.  That officer sounds like he over-reacted, but that needs to be considered in comparison to your fathers weekly cross-border trips over the years.

I have no problem with any of that. I can take border guards being bland, asking general questions, being not overtly friendly. I do not need a new friend at the border, I need someone being professional and courteous. «Please, Sir». «Thank you, Sir». I know my father. For all of that, or for a lack of thank yous and pleases, he would never comment - my father is a shy, unassuming guy. That, for him, is a good border crossing. It is the constant snide comments, suspicion, the insults, and, in this case, complete lack of respect that made him ask for a little more politeness. If dealing with the public wears you thin, take a break, or do not use your power to actually cover your own lacks.

For a year after this incident, every other border crossing took more than two hours for him - and he is part of the Nexus programme... When you are a truck driver, you have to factor him time. That cost him a lot.

An isolated incident ? Perhaps. But as is the case with isolated incidents with people who have lots of power, the repercussions are huge - especially when you rely on your ability to cross the border frequently This is why I can't blame people who fear border crossing and hate being treated like shit and having to swallow it all.

That being said, there *are* incidents of good border crossings - I remember discussing the Seven Years War with one (result of the traditionnal «What's the topic of the conference» question, in my case). But for people who cross frequently, like my father and his comrades, the feeling has definitely been one of more and more condescension and aggressiveness at the border.

[Oexmelin]

It's reality.  If you're in an unequal power relationship (I don't care if its teacher-student, border guard-border crosser, or judge-lawyer) if you're being treated like shit the best reaction is to smile and apologize.

Its not fair, but its how the world works.

Well, then, this marks a difference between us, for I believe it is simply an encouragement to continue to be treated like shit. I would much rather have people with power who have values and integrity, than endorsing people who enjoy petty powertrips and leaving them be petty tyrants. This would be impunity.

Of course, there is a difference with being a smartass.