Canada to firmly re-assess its status as a British colony

[Grallon]

This whole debacle of a thread demonstrate, if needed be, that the extreme bad faith I referred to earlier is alive and well.

Unfortunately, and despite the widespread conceit from the Canadians here, my own political positions are those of a minority - hence why Quebec is in the doldrums it finds itself in.   




G.

[crazy canuck]

my own political positions are those of a minority

May it ever be so.

[Oexmelin]

on my reading of the policy on the government website such accomodations can be made.  In my view your laws would become Draconian if they deny the ability to learn English.

No one serious has ever advocated that since the political demise of the super extremists, in the 1970s. Who would? People will argue about the specifics of English education (what is the best age to start, how long, should there be a third language, etc.). I, for instance, argue that English teaching is obsessed with utility, and not enough about learning a language for the language's sake.

One of the last contentious issue is about the Cégep (equivalent to grade 12-13) which are, like universities, exempt from the Charter: i.e., anyone can go to a publically funded English Cégep or an English University. As Viper said, some of the more purist elements from the PQ have always been in favour of Cégep inclusion within the Charter.

[Razgovory]

This whole debacle of a thread demonstrate, if needed be, that the extreme bad faith I referred to earlier is alive and well.

Unfortunately, and despite the widespread conceit from the Canadians here, my own political positions are those of a minority - hence why Quebec is in the doldrums it finds itself in.   




G.

I agree, the Francophones do act in bad faith.  They demand equality across Canada, but are unwilling to give it in Quebec when it comes to language.

[Valmy]

If people don't want their children educated in French, why the fuck would they immigrate to Quebec?  I mean, I'm sure no one (or almost no one) who doen'st speak French immigrates to Quebec simply so that their children will be educated in French, but if it's a deal-breaker, then don't move there!  Shit, even moving within a country, there are tradeoffs that you have to make as to where is the best place for you to live.  If you choose to immigrate to Quebec, the fact that your children will be educated in French unless you can afford private education is just a fact of life, same as there will be cold winters there.  Again, if it's a deal-breaker, move somewhere else instead.

Likewise if you do not want your kid to be taught creationism, intelligent design, that Christianity is the foundation of American and human liberty, laissez faire Capitalism is the proven and infallible way to increase jobs and prosperity then do not send your kids to Texas public schools.

[Valmy]

Are you seriously asserting that the US educational system educates immigrant children "contrary to their expressed interests" and "contrary to their actual self-interest", and in fact that *all* educational systems do?

Please provide an example of the way in which the US educational system educates children contrary to their expressed and actual interests.

Our educational system is highly political and designed to pass on American values to children.  Cultural values.  The stuff you think is bad to pass on through education.  But what exactly it entails varies from district to district and from state to state but I assure you there is plenty you would find counterproductive if the horreh of instruction in French is judged to be so.

But is it not true that Quebec has the highest rate of people who can speak both French and English?  Does that not suggest the best way to teach people to be bilingual is instruction primarily in French?  Doesn't knowing both languages improve the possibility of employment especially in the Federal Government?  How is that counterproductive?

[Razgovory]

But is it not true that Quebec has the highest rate of people who can speak both French and English?  Does that not suggest the best way to teach people to be bilingual is instruction primarily in French?  Doesn't knowing both languages improve the possibility of employment especially in the Federal Government?  How is that counterproductive?

Are there places where there is a higher rate of bilingualism where they don't mandate French?  Like say Germany or Sweden?

[Zoupa]

I'm having a blast reading this thread. 

Those poor angloquebecers. The most cozied and pampered minority on the planet. Such a hard life being an anglo in Montreal.

[Neil]

I'm having a blast reading this thread. 

Those poor angloquebecers. The most cozied and pampered minority on the planet. Such a hard life being an anglo in Montreal.

How about a franco in Ottawa?

[Malthus]

Huh? The government isn't providing services for its *own* good out of the goodness of its heart, but for that of its citizens, who after all pay the taxes, right?

It is for the citizens to decide - but in this case, they are deciding, not in the interests of the children, but in the interests of a majority block *against* the (perceived) interests of the children and their parents.

This is a classic tyranny of the majority situation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

Tryanny of the majority involves violation of a fundamental human right; what human right is being violating by the provincial requirement that public school instruction be done in the official provincial language?

It would be interesting to hear that folks in Quebec do not consider language rights to be fundamental.

By that token - what rights of theirs would be violated if the majority in Canada decided to make all education compulsory in English? Not a problem, right? What fundamental right is being violated? That would not be an example of the tyranny of the majority ... ?

[Malthus]

Are you seriously asserting that the US educational system educates immigrant children "contrary to their expressed interests" and "contrary to their actual self-interest", and in fact that *all* educational systems do?

Please provide an example of the way in which the US educational system educates children contrary to their expressed and actual interests.

Our educational system is highly political and designed to pass on American values to children.  Cultural values.  The stuff you think is bad to pass on through education.  But what exactly it entails varies from district to district and from state to state but I assure you there is plenty you would find counterproductive if the horreh of instruction in French is judged to be so.

But is it not true that Quebec has the highest rate of people who can speak both French and English?  Does that not suggest the best way to teach people to be bilingual is instruction primarily in French?  Doesn't knowing both languages improve the possibility of employment especially in the Federal Government?  How is that counterproductive?

Let's correct some misconceptions here ...

1. I never said it was bad to pass on cultural values via education. I said it was bad to pass on cultural values via education, where such values were (a) contrary to the values of those being educated, and (b) contrary to their actual self-interest. There may be examples of this in US education, but you haven't provided any, and if there are, I'm against that too (as possible example would be stuff like teaching creationism in science class to kids who are not Christian - it would be both against their culture, and actively bad for them. I assume you don't favour that ... ).

2. As for Quebec having the most bilingual folks and its educational system - you are mixing "correlation" and "causation". Quebec has lots of bilingual folks because it has lots of folks there who speak both English and French. This would be true whether the educational system were great or lousy. The reason so much of Canada is not bilinual, is that there is no practical way for those learning French in class to speak it, as there are very few french-speakers on the ground.

[Malthus]

If people don't want their children educated in French, why the fuck would they immigrate to Quebec?  I mean, I'm sure no one (or almost no one) who doen'st speak French immigrates to Quebec simply so that their children will be educated in French, but if it's a deal-breaker, then don't move there!  Shit, even moving within a country, there are tradeoffs that you have to make as to where is the best place for you to live.  If you choose to immigrate to Quebec, the fact that your children will be educated in French unless you can afford private education is just a fact of life, same as there will be cold winters there.  Again, if it's a deal-breaker, move somewhere else instead.

Likewise if you do not want your kid to be taught creationism, intelligent design, that Christianity is the foundation of American and human liberty, laissez faire Capitalism is the proven and infallible way to increase jobs and prosperity then do not send your kids to Texas public schools.

So, in your guy's opinion, no-one can complain about a silly policy like teaching creationism, because, you know, love it or leave it ... ?

I'm not sure whether you seriously believe that, or are joking. Honestly, I'm not.

[viper37]

This whole debacle of a thread demonstrate, if needed be, that the extreme bad faith I referred to earlier is alive and well.

Unfortunately, and despite the widespread conceit from the Canadians here, my own political positions are those of a minority - hence why Quebec is in the doldrums it finds itself in.  




G.

see the bright side: in the old days of Paradox, Malthus would have been the moderate one.  Now, he looks like the radical in this thread.  Only Neil surpasses him, but you never know when he's trolling or when he's serious.

[The Minsky Moment]

By that token - what rights of theirs would be violated if the majority in Canada decided to make all education compulsory in English? Not a problem, right? What fundamental right is being violated? That would not be an example of the tyranny of the majority ... ?

If federal Canada wanted to set up national public schools that taught in English, I can't see what fundamental right would be violated in the abstract.  It might violate the Charter or the Canadian Federal Constitution, but I am not familiar enough with those documents to say.  (quick check suggests that it would).

[viper37]

I'm having a blast reading this thread. 

Those poor angloquebecers. The most cozied and pampered minority on the planet. Such a hard life being an anglo in Montreal.

How about a franco in Ottawa?

wake me up when someone threatens to shut down the Jeffery Hale in Quebec city, the only English hospital in the area.