Canada to firmly re-assess its status as a British colony

[Valmy]

Effectively, these provisions make immigrants, and those who are Canadians and cannot prove "anglo-ness" in educational matters, get (public) education in French.

But is that not to their benefit?  I mean if they are going to live in Quebec it just makes sense to learn French.  And besides I am pretty sure the Francophone schools still teach English correct?  I mean Grey Fox and company probably did not learn it entirely from Paradox games.

I would think only a minority of immigrants would have a huge problem with that.

[crazy canuck]

Every society limits immigration, and the overwhelming majority of societies out there - including the US - limits it more than Canada and Quebec, on a per capita basis. One can certainly take pride in that fact re: Canada, but before ascribing any such talk by a non-party to an undercurrent of fascism (Grallon's own idiosyncracises notwithstanding), maybe some rhetorical precautions would be in order.

You have taken me very much out of context.  The immigration part was in reference to a complaint that we were seeing racism where there is none.  The facism comes from Grallon's posts.

[Oexmelin]

So am I correct that the basic claim Oex of the Francophones in respect to the rest of Canada is that the official bilingualism is practically non-existent?

While the official unilingualism of Quebec is practically bilingualism?

No, you are not correct. It is the officious - the lived, the actual bilingualism - which is non-existent. The official bilingualism (and by that, I mean the Federal government bilingualism) exists - despite its very real shortcomings.

And, indeed, the official unilingualism of Quebec is practically bilingualism. You *will* get services in English from the government. You will get services in English from the population. From businesses. You get access to media, books, education, health care, entertainment in English. And, unless I am mistaken, Viper, Grey Fox, Rex Francorum, Grallon and I are the product of a French speaking education system - and yet we are arguing all this in English. 

[viper37]

Effectively, these provisions make immigrants, and those who are Canadians and cannot prove "anglo-ness" in educational matters, get (public) education in French.

they're free to pay for their education.  I fail to see why we should pay for our assimilation.  They even have access to English public schools after a few years in a private one.
Oh, the horror...  Learning French in Quebec is a vewwy bad thing...

[Barrister]

It simply returns to the fundamental disagrement we have: you argue from a position detached from context, and I argue that contexts allows us to better understand the position.

This is a complaint I frequently have in Languish coversations.  So many people want to argue in the abstract, want to argue from political first principles, and generally ignore the historical context of why things are the way they are.

[viper37]

I would think only a minority of immigrants would have a huge problem with that.

Immigrants don't have a problem with that.  Many English Quebecers of the old guard do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_Party_%28Quebec%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_Quebec

[Malthus]

Effectively, these provisions make immigrants, and those who are Canadians and cannot prove "anglo-ness" in educational matters, get (public) education in French.

But is that not to their benefit?  I mean if they are going to live in Quebec it just makes sense to learn French.  And besides I am pretty sure the Francophone schools still teach English correct?  I mean Grey Fox and company probably did not learn it entirely from Paradox games.

I would think only a minority of immigrants would have a huge problem with that.

Fact is that even with these policies many immigrants prefer their kids to learn English - which is what Zoupa was decrying.

Why does the government know better on this issue than them?

Fact is, not even those pushing these policies claim it's for the benefit of the kids - the benefit is to the Francophone majority, not to them.

[Malthus]

And, indeed, the official unilingualism of Quebec is practically bilingualism. You *will* get services in English from the government. 

I can tell you right now that this is not true.

Example: my field of drug regulation.

RAMQ's English site:

http://www.ramq.gouv.qc.ca/index_en.shtml

RAMQ's French site:

http://www.ramq.gouv.qc.ca/index.shtml

Looks pretty similar, right? Now, look for some information.

http://www.ramq.gouv.qc.ca/en/professionnels/index.shtml

Oh oh.

This section is not available in English.

To consult the French version:

Services aux professionnels de la santé

[Valmy]

Fact is that even with these policies many immigrants prefer their kids to learn English - which is what Zoupa was decrying.

Why does the government know better on this issue than them?

And I was suggesting they will learn English anyway.  I do not get the second sentence.  The government is the one providing the service and spending the money so um what?  How dare the government have a say in the government?

I was speaking that taken on its face I do not see the problem.  Presuming my assumption, that English is taught in the Francophone schools, is correct.

[Malthus]

It simply returns to the fundamental disagrement we have: you argue from a position detached from context, and I argue that contexts allows us to better understand the position.

This is a complaint I frequently have in Languish coversations.  So many people want to argue in the abstract, want to argue from political first principles, and generally ignore the historical context of why things are the way they are.

Huh? I'm not "ignoring the historical context of why things are the way they are". The fact that they are the way they are isn't a moral reason for them to be that way.

[Barrister]

To go back to the OP - poling done has shown that a majority of Canadians support renaming the air force and navy.  It's almost 2:1 in favour from what I can tell.

Even in Quebec the move gathered 41% support.

[Valmy]

Even in Quebec the move gathered 41% support.

Vive La Reine?

[Malthus]

Fact is that even with these policies many immigrants prefer their kids to learn English - which is what Zoupa was decrying.

Why does the government know better on this issue than them?

And I was suggesting they will learn English anyway.  I do not get the second sentence.  The government is the one providing the service and spending the money so um what?  How dare the government have a say in the government?

Huh? The government isn't providing services for its *own* good out of the goodness of its heart, but for that of its citizens, who after all pay the taxes, right?

It is for the citizens to decide - but in this case, they are deciding, not in the interests of the children, but in the interests of a majority block *against* the (perceived) interests of the children and their parents.

This is a classic tyranny of the majority situation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

[Valmy]

Huh? The government isn't providing services for its *own* good out of the goodness of its heart, but for that of its citizens, who after all pay the taxes, right?

It is for the citizens to decide - but in this case, they are deciding, not in the interests of the children, but in the interests of a majority block *against* the (perceived) interests of the children and their parents.

This is a classic tyranny of the majority situation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

I do not see anything coercive about NOT spending money to provide a service.  Unless tyrants rule the world over.  As to why the government is providing mostly Francophone schools, well I presume they are doing it because that is what the voters want.  But what I was saying is that the move seems more aimed at making sure people can speak French less that English is destroyed.  Educated people being able to speak French is just a logical public interest in a French speaking place.  Which strikes me as not a horrible thing.

They will also be taught English.

[viper37]

This section is not available in English.

To consult the French version:

Services aux professionnels de la santé

so, there's no one in your office to do the translations billed at 450$/hr to your clients?

Seriously, I'd suggest e-mailing them for the info you require.