Pakistan: Oh yeah? We'll show you!

[CountDeMoney]

U.S. Aides Believe China Examined Stealth Copter
By MARK MAZZETTI

WASHINGTON — In the days after the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, Pakistan's intelligence service probably allowed Chinese military engineers to examine the wreckage of a stealth American helicopter that crashed during the operation, according to American officials and others familiar with the classified intelligence assessments.

Such cooperation with China would be provocative, providing further evidence of the depths of Pakistan's anger over the Bin Laden raid, which was carried out without Pakistan's approval. The operation, conducted in early May, also set off an escalating tit-for-tat scuffle between American and Pakistani spies.

American spy agencies have concluded that it is likely that Chinese engineers — at the invitation of Pakistani intelligence operatives — took detailed photographs of the severed tail of the Black Hawk helicopter equipped with classified technology designed to elude radar, the officials said. The members of the Navy Seals team who conducted the raid had tried to destroy the helicopter after it crashed at Bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, but the tail section of the aircraft remained largely intact.

American officials cautioned that they did not yet have definitive proof that the Chinese were allowed to visit to Abbottabad. They said that Pakistani officials had denied that they showed the advanced helicopter technology to other foreign governments. One military official said Sunday that Pakistani officials had been directly confronted about the American intelligence.

One person with knowledge of the intelligence assessments said that the American case was based mostly on intercepted conversations in which Pakistani officials discussed inviting the Chinese to the crash site. He characterized intelligence officials as being "certain" that Chinese engineers were able to photograph the helicopter and even walk away with samples of the wreckage. The tail has been shipped back to the United States, according to American officials.

Pakistan has a close military relationship with China, and large numbers of Chinese engineers work at military bases inside Pakistan. Pakistani officials have even suggested that the Chinese Navy might eventually have its own base along Pakistan's coastline.

Several Pakistani officials reached on Sunday declined to comment. The American assessments were disclosed Sunday by The Financial Times. The newspaper cited Pakistani officials who denied the accusations.

When pictures of the helicopter's tail emerged in the days after the Bin Laden raid, defense experts said it bore little resemblance to a standard Black Hawk helicopter. They said that the helicopter in Abbottabad appeared to have a special coating designed to elude air defenses, and that the Black Hawk's sharp edges seemed to have been replaced with curved parts that could further confuse ground radar systems.

Pakistan's anger about the Bin Laden operation was so intense that officials in Islamabad, the capital, hinted in news reports in May that they might allow the Chinese to see the helicopter wreckage, but it was unclear at the time whether Pakistan's government might follow through on the veiled threats. Pakistani officials also made a high-profile trip to Beijing shortly after the Abbottabad raid, part of a not-so-subtle campaign to show the strength of Pakistan's alliance with China amid faltering relations between Washington and Islamabad.

Meanwhile, the intelligence services of the two countries have quietly carried out their own spy games. Pakistan's military spy service, the Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI, arrested a group of Pakistani citizens in May who the agency suspected were working with the Central Intelligence Agency in the months leading up to the Bin Laden raid.

One of those arrested was a Pakistani doctor who had helped the C.I.A. set up a phony vaccination program in Abbottabad. The doctor had set up the vaccination scheme in the hope of gaining access to the Bin Laden compound and getting hard evidence that Bin Laden was hiding there. The doctor remains in Pakistani custody, according to American officials.

The C.I.A., for its part, has continued to carry out missile strikes inside Pakistan using armed drone aircraft, a campaign that has been tacitly blessed by Pakistani leaders but that has further aggravated relations between the C.I.A. and the ISI.

The relationship between the spy services began fraying in the months before the Bin Laden raid, after a C.I.A. contractor was charged with murder and jailed in Lahore. The contractor, Raymond A. Davis, killed two men at a crowded traffic stop in Lahore in January, in what American officials described as an act of self-defense after the two men tried to rob Mr. Davis.

Mr. Davis was eventually released from jail, but American relations with Pakistan declined steadily in subsequent weeks and sank even lower after the Bin Laden raid.

However, amid the recriminations and threats by members of Congress to cut all military aid to Pakistan, some senior members of the Obama administration have tried to dial back tensions before they do permanent damage to the shaky alliance.

Despite the headaches of an alliance marked by mutual distrust and competing agendas, the officials argue, the prospect of Washington permanently severing ties with a nuclear-armed country as volatile as Pakistan would be far more dangerous.

[Martinus]

Lulz.

But doesn't Israel do crap like this too, yet you guys are entrenched deep inside it's arse?

[Slargos]

Lulz.

But doesn't Israel do crap like this too, yet you guys are entrenched deep inside it's arse?

Unsalvagable.

[CountDeMoney]

Lulz.

But doesn't Israel do crap like this too,

No, they don't sell wreckage. 

PATRIOT TECH! UP!!! MINT IN SHRINK!!!!  #1!!!!!!

[Martinus]

Lulz.

But doesn't Israel do crap like this too, yet you guys are entrenched deep inside it's arse?

Unsalvagable.

It's my fucking iPad spellcheck.

[Razgovory]

I didn't even know there were stealth Helicopters.

[Siege]

I didn't even know there were stealth Helicopters.

Ever heard of the commanche program?
It was scrapped, but many things that were learnt during the program were carried over to the blackhawk enhancement program, trying to achieve a longer service life for the blackhawk.

[Razgovory]

I didn't even know there were stealth Helicopters.

Ever heard of the commanche program?
It was scrapped, but many things that were learnt during the program were carried over to the blackhawk enhancement program, trying to achieve a longer service life for the blackhawk.

I try to ignore all news about stealth technology in the vain hope the US military will forget about this white elephant.

[grumbler]

I try to ignore all news about stealth technology in the vain hope the US military will forget about this white elephant.

I doubt the military ever knew enough about you to have anything to forget.

[Eddie Teach]

The CIA probably has a thick dossier on him though.

[Razgovory]

The CIA probably has a thick dossier on him though.

So does the Army from the my ROTC period.

[jimmy olsen]

The CIA probably has a thick dossier on him though.

So does the Army from the my ROTC period.

[/b]

I'm skeptical.

[Razgovory]

I try to ignore all news about stealth technology in the vain hope the US military will forget about this white elephant.

I doubt the military ever knew enough about you to have anything to forget.

Sometimes, if I ignore something long enough I will forget it and then when the topic comes up reality has changed.  I'm not sure if that's an actual phenomenon or I'm just crazy, but it's worth a try.  It's also the best I can do.


What is your opinion on Stealth technology?  I have cousin who works on that kind of stuff at Boeing (previously McDonnell Douglas), he has a fairly low opinion of it.

[Razgovory]

The CIA probably has a thick dossier on him though.

So does the Army from the my ROTC period.

[/b]

I'm skeptical.

Apparently they filter out people with mental problems.  Who'd have thought?  Maybe it's different now.  But I signed up and took the classes till they found out I was a bit on the crazy side.  This was back in 2000-2002.

[grumbler]

What is your opinion on Stealth technology?  I have cousin who works on that kind of stuff at Boeing (previously McDonnell Douglas), he has a fairly low opinion of it.

Some of it is extremely useful and effective see: drones).  Some of it is used just as a magic bullet talking point when trying to get a weapons system adopted (see D/A-18 E).  Stealth technology is like any other technology; you have to look at the cost-benefit ratio.