Thanks a lot, you motherfucking Yanks

[Barrister]

Man I hate it when Languish doesn't save my posts.

Anyway, that $2M were just THREE examples. There are exhaustive lists online of things I think are just as ridiculous under these circumstances. Your assertion is like saying that if you're a family in economic crisis, you don't have to worry about that $14/month World of Warcraft bill, or the couple of Starbucks you get every week, because hey, those are small potatoes, right? Small things add up. In this case, small things add up to a whole lot of wasted opportunity.

My assertion is that if you're trying to make ends meet on a, say, $75,000 budget, you absolutely should not worry that you dropped a penny on the ground last week and decided not to pick it up.

Sometimes things are so small they do not, in fact, add up.

If you want to talk about defense spending - great!  Medicare and social security - have at er!  But listening to a rant about academic grants reminds me too much of bad talk radio.

[Malthus]

Government grants employ people too.

Of course. But every dollar utilized by the government is taken from either an individual or an entity, and thereby reduces their ability to do anything with that money, themselves. Either way, I think that $2M I cited could have been utilized in a capacity that would have given us more bang for our buck.

I don't think that the quest for extreme fiscal efficiency ends in a place that you want to live.

At any rate, it's certainly within the realm of acceptable political discourse as to how efficient you want your spending to be, but it seems that since the Depression, the US has decided to put some money into keeping creative types employed, and the Manhattan Project and the space program were evidence that the US clearly has a compelling interest in advancing research.

True - one never knows what future applications may come from the study of thousands of exotic ants.

[Actually, I'm serious ]

[Princesca]

But you're harping on one small point in my entire argument, BB. Which was only an illustration anyway. My point was to say that Marti blaming the Tea Party for this crisis is like blaming your local Girl Scout because the cookies suck now.

Do you agree with that?

FYI - I'm all about reducing defense spending. I advocate ending all current wars and vastly reducing our presence in the global theatre. It's time we started nation building at home.

[Razgovory]

First Tea Party rally occurred in 2009.  http://centralny.ynn.com/content/all_news/132356/a--tea-party--to-protest-paterson-s-taxes/  There were no Tea party rallies that occurred during the Bush administration.

Right, because organizations usually hold a rally the day they start up. Wikipedia states that the first rally was held 1/24/09, but that the movement is often credited to the momentum of Ron Paul's 2008 campaign. I first started hearing these things gen up during TARP - and I was in a position to notice, since my job at the time was to track the economic downturn. It may be that the first rallies weren't held until 2009, but the movement began to coalesce in 2008.

It doesn't take five months to organize a rally.  And this rally was not even about TARP.  Sorry, but this is occurred during the Obama administration.  It's unlikely it would have occurred during a Republican presidency.  The Tea Party isn't really new, it's simply the most recent manifestation of right wing populism, it pops up ever so often when Conservatives feel threatened.  In the 1990's it was the Reform party and the militias.  In the late 60's and 70's it was the Silent Majority.  50's it was McCarthyism.  In the 30's the Silver shirts and the Black Legion.  In the 1920's it was the Klan.


Take a look at this: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1892/tea-party-republicans-divide-cuts-federal-spending  Tea Party member go on about "out of control" spending, and the need to make severe cuts.  But where do they want to make the cuts?

Education?  Nope.  Agriculture?  Nope. Defense?  Nope?  Social Security?  Nope. Veterans benefits?  Nope.  Medicare?  Nope.

There are four things that a majority of Tea Party members want to cut.  Healthcare (Obamacare!  Death Panels!), Environmental protection (Global Warming hoax!),  Foreign AID (filthy America hating foreigners), and unemployment ( lazy bums).  You aren't going to balance the budget cutting those.  It's miniscule bullshit.  What this tells me is they mad, but not exactly sure why they are mad.  Obama is President and there is a deficit, but beyond that... there's nothing.  Just populist ignorance.

As it happens, a great deal of the Pork tends to go to Republican districts, since they tend to be rural and have difficulty paying for projects like highways and bridges.  I believe your state happens to get more in federal funds then it pays it's citizens pay in taxes.  I doubt Senator McConnell is interested in removing the subsidies that so benefit his state.

Incidentally my Congresswoman (who rode the Tea Party wagon to victory in 2010 got 3/4th of a million dollars in farm subsidies.  As you point out you could pay 25 people at a $30,000/year salary with that.  A better deal then overpriced soy beans.  I doubt my Congresswoman is interested in ending that farm subsidy either.

[grumbler]

Government grants employ people too.

Yeah, I don't understand the TPish value of given people money rather than spending that money to employ them.

But, then, I am not a member of the tribe and so maybe don't speak the language.  The bleat that

Our government is of the privileged, by big money, for the perpetuation of itself. THAT status quo is what the Tea Party was started to fight.

ignores the fact that that status quo is what the Republican and democratic parties were founded to fight, as well.  The reality is that, to some extend, all three parties have been hijacked by people who want to promote their own private interests.  I think Princesa says that she understands this, but hasn't thought through the implications.

[MadImmortalMan]

The TP was unequivocally a reaction to bank bailouts.

[Princesca]

Raz: I'm not going to go into defending the Tea Party. It wasn't the point of my post, and, like I said, I don't consider myself a part of it.

But the Tea Party is not responsible for tanking global markets. Every rating agency has said that, debt ceiling deals aside, we are still cruising for a downgrade because of having no coherent plan to deal with our out of control debt.

I'm pretty sure the Tea Party didn't borrow trillions of dollars on behalf of the American people.

[Princesca]

Grumbler: No, I understand you. Both parties have been hijacked. I agree. The TP was also hijacked, which is why I left it. Like I said, not here to defend the TP as a whole. Just saying that Marti's original assertion is asinine.

[Razgovory]

The TP was unequivocally a reaction to bank bailouts.

Or the Savings and Loan buyouts.  They both happened before the Tea party formed.

[grumbler]

Of course. But every dollar utilized by the government is taken from either an individual or an entity, and thereby reduces their ability to do anything with that money, themselves. Either way, I think that $2M I cited could have been utilized in a capacity that would have given us more bang for our buck.

I think that there is no question about this.  However, i don't think that the government could have done it.  It would have cost far more than $2 million, I suspect, to have a government bureaucracy look at the two million and figure out the most efficient way to spend it.

While it is nice to think that the government could be efficient enough to know that the $2 million would have been better-off untaxed, I think that that is asking for too much.  Two million isn't even visible in the rounding error for the federal budget.  What is needed is better rules for Congressional pork, and I think we have seen the first steps down that path taken.

Anyway, welcome back, and I hope you stick around.

[Razgovory]

Raz: I'm not going to go into defending the Tea Party. It wasn't the point of my post, and, like I said, I don't consider myself a part of it.

But the Tea Party is not responsible for tanking global markets. Every rating agency has said that, debt ceiling deals aside, we are still cruising for a downgrade because of having no coherent plan to deal with our out of control debt.

I'm pretty sure the Tea Party didn't borrow trillions of dollars on behalf of the American people.

They had no problem when trillions of dollars were borrowed over the last decade.  They were notably silent when the country went from surplus to deficit.  Hell, most they probably voted for a man who promised to do exactly that.

The Tea Party congressmen who held up the debt ceiling vote spooked the markets.  They now think there is a chance that the US will just decide to default because of some stubborn ideologues.  Perhaps rating agencies will downgrade American debt someday, perhaps 10 years from now, perhaps a hundred years from now, but not today.  That's not why the markets are in a tizzy.

Comparing the debt ceiling crisis to the increasing debt the US has is like comparing a cigarette to a bullet in the head.  Yeah, they both will kill you eventually, but bullets are the ones that are going to cause a bit more worry in the immediate future.

[Barrister]

Anyway, welcome back, and I hope you stick around.

I certainly don't want to scare you away.

PLus if more women post here, maybe I can convince my wife to come back again.

[Valmy]

All stock markets are plunging. Fuck you and your dysfunctional political system.

Bah you are inspired by our shining beacon of freedomness deep down.

[Princesca]

Nah... I'm not easily scared off or offended, but I can't say that I have much desire to talk politics anymore. The past several years since the Patriot Act have pretty much burned me out worse than a can of Sterno at a Overeaters Anonymous buffet. 

But I'll stick around to dish on the non-political stuff. Only did this because I was mentioned by name. Someone's got to defend my honor. Ahem, Cal.   

[Neil]

But you're harping on one small point in my entire argument, BB. Which was only an illustration anyway. My point was to say that Marti blaming the Tea Party for this crisis is like blaming your local Girl Scout because the cookies suck now.

Marti blames the Tea Party because he is ignorant and ill-informed.

FYI - I'm all about reducing defense spending. I advocate ending all current wars and vastly reducing our presence in the global theatre. It's time we started nation building at home.

The problem with that is that US prosperity at home is built on international trade and global stability.  If we're talking about rolling that back, we're talking about rolling back American standards of living as well.