Thanks a lot, you motherfucking Yanks

[Barrister]

Heh, Princessa brings out the socialist in BB. 

We need you here more often, P. Keep posting!

I attacked Prin for advocating Keynesian stimulus.  Doesn't sound very socialist to me.

[Princesca]

Thanks for the help on the formatting, BB.

I never claimed that the stimulus consisted of only those things. But in the crisis we're in, to spend even $2 million dollars on crap like that, when real unemployment is/was well over 10%, is practically criminal.

For criminy's sake, at least research something with job creation capacity! Improvised music?! Don't get me wrong, music is great, but I'd rather have critically-useful technology. Hell, if we're gonna piss away $2M, how about at least pissing it away in physics research or space research or SOMEthing...

[Princesca]

Heh, Princessa brings out the socialist in BB. 

We need you here more often, P. Keep posting!

I attacked Prin for advocating Keynesian stimulus.  Doesn't sound very socialist to me.

What?! When the hell did I advocate Keynesian stimulus? I mean, I'm just operating from the assumption that SOME stimulus was inescapable. Personally, I pretty much just want the government to provide for international treaties, national defense, and critical infrastructure. But that's a separate discussion.

ETA: Just to clarify, I was opposed to stimulus period. My only argument is IF we're going to drop that kind of money, give it to the people first. It would have still gone to the banks for recapitalization. And as for TARP being repaid, that's a murky subject. From what I've read, there's some sleight of hand going on between the US Treasury and the Fed that makes that not necessarily true. But as I am not an expert on that, personally, I don't really feel qualified to get into it in more detail. Suffice to say I am skeptical.

[Martinus]

Special message to Caliga: tell your stupid wife, who voted for the Tea Party, to go fuck herself.

You can vote for the "Tea Party"?

I thought I told you this Mart, but she's not interested in the Tea Party anymore... she was at first, but then a bunch of right-wing Christian extremist wackjobs muscled in, took the "party" over, and ruined everything.

Last time I remember she was spouting some Tea-partyish stuff on Facebook.

[Neil]

Government grants employ people too.

[Princesca]

Government grants employ people too.

Of course. But every dollar utilized by the government is taken from either an individual or an entity, and thereby reduces their ability to do anything with that money, themselves. Either way, I think that $2M I cited could have been utilized in a capacity that would have given us more bang for our buck.

[Barrister]

Thanks for the help on the formatting, BB.

I never claimed that the stimulus consisted of only those things. But in the crisis we're in, to spend even $2 million dollars on crap like that, when real unemployment is/was well over 10%, is practically criminal.

For criminy's sake, at least research something with job creation capacity! Improvised music?! Don't get me wrong, music is great, but I'd rather have critically-useful technology. Hell, if we're gonna piss away $2M, how about at least pissing it away in physics research or space research or SOMEthing...

US total government spending is approx 3.5 trillion dollars.

The $2 million dollar study accounts for 0.000000057% of federal government spending. (I may have missed a decimal place, but you get the idea).  It is useless to even discuss such expenditures if you want to get US government spending under control (which you absolutely want to do).

It's like spending time worrying about some cigarette ash that has landed on your couch while your living room is engulfed in flames.

[Martinus]

The same happened to me. I voted for the Tea and then the local wackjobs started praying something about their twisted version of religion. It was carefully worded, but I can read between the lines. Anyway, my wife voted demoncrat, as always, and that voided my vote.

You are a lucky man. You have an intelligent wife.

I used to wonder how your marital life looks like, what with your paleolitic approach to social mores and stuff. Now I realize she is probably just humoring you and nodding politely when you spout your bullshit, but then has a decisive say on all important decisions affecting your life.

[Barrister]

Heh, Princessa brings out the socialist in BB. 

We need you here more often, P. Keep posting!

I attacked Prin for advocating Keynesian stimulus.  Doesn't sound very socialist to me.

What?! When the hell did I advocate Keynesian stimulus? I mean, I'm just operating from the assumption that SOME stimulus was inescapable. Personally, I pretty much just want the government to provide for international treaties, national defense, and critical infrastructure. But that's a separate discussion.

ETA: Just to clarify, I was opposed to stimulus period. My only argument is IF we're going to drop that kind of money, give it to the people first. It would have still gone to the banks for recapitalization. And as for TARP being repaid, that's a murky subject. From what I've read, there's some sleight of hand going on between the US Treasury and the Fed that makes that not necessarily true. But as I am not an expert on that, personally, I don't really feel qualified to get into it in more detail. Suffice to say I am skeptical.

You advocated Keynesian stimulus right here:

Imagine if the government had taken all the money invested in TARP and the stimulus (on non-shovel-ready projects) and returned that money to the taxpayer. The point of TARP was to recapitalize the banks, right? If you gave the taxpayer $10,000, one of several things would happen:

1) The taxpayer would buy stuff. Money goes to retailers, retailers either create jobs, invest in expansion, or bank the capital. Money back to banks.
2) The taxpayer would pay off debt. Banks hold debt. Money goes to banks.
3) The taxpayer would save. Savings TYPICALLY go into banks and investments. Sure, some people might bury it in the yard, but that's a tiny minority.

Banks would have been recapitalized, but the taxpayer (and in some cases, retailers) would have benefited first. The average taxpayer would have been in a healthier position at the end of the crisis than they were at the beginning. So why not give it to the taxpayer first and let it have exponential benefits? Instead, we're spending millions to, among other things:

Such money would not be "returned to the taxpayer" - the US is in a masive government deficit.  In order to give taxpayers $10,000 that money would be borrowed.  Borrowing money to give to citizens to stimulate the economy is the very definition of keynesian stimulus.

It also conveniently forgets that the majority of TARP money has already been repaid, with even more of it expected to be repaid in the future.

[Martinus]

All stock markets are plunging. Fuck you and your dysfunctional political system.

Special message to Caliga: tell your stupid wife, who voted for the Tea Party, to go fuck herself.

We tanked because of Italy. So thank your Euro bretheren.

We are not a part of the Euro zone.

[Malthus]

The same happened to me. I voted for the Tea and then the local wackjobs started praying something about their twisted version of religion. It was carefully worded, but I can read between the lines. Anyway, my wife voted demoncrat, as always, and that voided my vote.

You are a lucky man. You have an intelligent wife.

I used to wonder how your marital life looks like, what with your paleolitic approach to social mores and stuff. Now I realize she is probably just humoring you and nodding politely when you spout your bullshit, but then has a decisive say on all important decisions affecting your life.

Oh, wouldn't life be fun if all our SOs started posting in Languish? 

[Princesca]

US total government spending is approx 3.5 trillion dollars.

The $2 million dollar study accounts for 0.000000057% of federal government spending. (I may have missed a decimal place, but you get the idea).  It is useless to even discuss such expenditures if you want to get US government spending under control (which you absolutely want to do).

It's like spending time worrying about some cigarette ash that has landed on your couch while your living room is engulfed in flames.

Man I hate it when Languish doesn't save my posts. I am having formatting issues today. Grr.

Anyway, that $2M were just THREE examples. There are exhaustive lists online of things I think are just as ridiculous under these circumstances. Your assertion is like saying that if you're a family in economic crisis, you don't have to worry about that $14/month World of Warcraft bill, or the couple of Starbucks you get every week, because hey, those are small potatoes, right? Small things add up. In this case, small things add up to a whole lot of wasted opportunity.

[Martinus]

Government grants employ people too.

Of course. But every dollar utilized by the government is taken from either an individual or an entity, and thereby reduces their ability to do anything with that money, themselves. Either way, I think that $2M I cited could have been utilized in a capacity that would have given us more bang for our buck.

You are just as retarded as you were when I defriended you on Facebook.

[Princesca]

It's too bad you seem to have bad memories of that time, Marti. It was one of happiest days of my life. 

[Neil]

Government grants employ people too.

Of course. But every dollar utilized by the government is taken from either an individual or an entity, and thereby reduces their ability to do anything with that money, themselves. Either way, I think that $2M I cited could have been utilized in a capacity that would have given us more bang for our buck.

I don't think that the quest for extreme fiscal efficiency ends in a place that you want to live.

At any rate, it's certainly within the realm of acceptable political discourse as to how efficient you want your spending to be, but it seems that since the Depression, the US has decided to put some money into keeping creative types employed, and the Manhattan Project and the space program were evidence that the US clearly has a compelling interest in advancing research.