Football (Soccer) Thread

[Grey Fox]

So close. Yet so far.

[The Larch]

Milan withdraws, they're down to 3 (R. Madrid, Barcelona & Juve).

[celedhring]

Doesn't seem to be too much rage from Italy and Spain?
Or am I just missing something?
Maybe a Spanish-Italian league could be a halfway compromise?

Sports media over here are overwhelmingly pro-Madrid/Barça, so they won't really criticize them very harshly. The Madrid press also happens to be absolutely infatuated by Florentino Pérez.

[celedhring]

Milan withdraws, they're down to 3 (R. Madrid, Barcelona & Juve).

I think our line is that "we were never officially in" (since fans had to vote on it next month). 

[garbon]

yes and no 

The working class are already exceedingly pissed-off here in the UK and now there was an attempt to take their game from them; it has turned out to be a damp squib but it is also an entry on a long list.

Part of the game being taken away narrative was because people in positions of power and influence found it in their interests to promote the narrative that the game was being taken from them.

No. It was because the game was being taken away from them. No narrative was needed, it was bleeding obvious.

Can you clarify how so?

[The Larch]

Milan withdraws, they're down to 3 (R. Madrid, Barcelona & Juve).

I think our line is that "we were never officially in" (since fans had to vote on it next month). 

He's still conspicuously silent about the whole thing, when he could easily spin it all away as a shit bomb that Bartomeu left for him to clean away.

[The Larch]

Doesn't seem to be too much rage from Italy and Spain?
Or am I just missing something?
Maybe a Spanish-Italian league could be a halfway compromise?

Sports media over here are overwhelmingly pro-Madrid/Barça, so they won't really criticize them very harshly. The Madrid press also happens to be absolutely infatuated by Florentino Pérez.

Also there's a not insignificant amount of big club fans (mostly Real Madrid, I'd say) that would indeed want such a competition and arrogantly think that the national league is kinda sorta beneath them because they're really meant to only play in the biggest events. I see lots of online comments from Real Madrid fans lionizing Florentino as a champion against UEFA corruption, trying to spin the whole thing as a rebellion against the establishment (which couldn't be more disingenious, but it's there) and taking a stand against the oil sheiks and so on.

On top of that in Spanish football fans there's an ingrained sense of resignation about big clubs always getting things their way and inequality being inherent to the game. I mean, R. Madrid and Barcelona had to be arm-twisted by law into a fairer split of TV revenues, for Hod's sake.

[celedhring]

Milan withdraws, they're down to 3 (R. Madrid, Barcelona & Juve).

I think our line is that "we were never officially in" (since fans had to vote on it next month). 

He's still conspicuously silent about the whole thing, when he could easily spin it all away as a shit bomb that Bartomeu left for him to clean away.

He had a talk with the players that has been innocently leaked to the press.

El presidente azulgrana tiene claro que en este caso de la Superliga el Barça debe defender sus intereses, en un contexto de fuerte crisis económica del fútbol, en buena parte motivada por la pandemia, y en el que los estamentos futbolísticos se llevan la parte más grande de los ingresos que generan las competiciones organizadas por UEFA y FIFA, en especial la Champions League. En paralelo con esta defensa de los intereses del club, el Barça con Laporta a la cabeza se mantiene en permanente contacto con todas las partes, es decir, con los otros clubs que participaban del proyecto y con los organismos futbolísticos nacionales e internacionales para lograr una entente que mejore las condiciones de los clubs que hacen posibles las diferentes competiciones.

For our languishite friends. The gist of it is that he agreed to this in order to defend the club's interests, because UEFA/FIFA keep most of the money for themselves, but he is in touch with all the parts to try to reach an accord.

[celedhring]

Doesn't seem to be too much rage from Italy and Spain?
Or am I just missing something?
Maybe a Spanish-Italian league could be a halfway compromise?

Sports media over here are overwhelmingly pro-Madrid/Barça, so they won't really criticize them very harshly. The Madrid press also happens to be absolutely infatuated by Florentino Pérez.

Also there's a not insignificant amount of big club fans (mostly Real Madrid, I'd say) that would indeed want such a competition and arrogantly think that the national league is kinda sorta beneath them because they're really meant to only play in the biggest events. I see lots of online comments from Real Madrid fans lionizing Florentino as a champion against UEFA corruption, trying to spin the whole thing as a rebellion against the establishment (which couldn't be more disingenious, but it's there) and taking a stand against the oil sheiks and so on.

On top of that in Spanish football fans there's an ingrained sense of resignation about big clubs always getting things their way and inequality being inherent to the game. I mean, R. Madrid and Barcelona had to be arm-twisted by law into a fairer split of TV revenues, for Hod's sake.

I loved Pérez's interview where he constantly reminded people that "they" (Real Madrid) founded the European Cup, and now they were doing it again. Incidentally, one of the most hilarious provisions of the SuperLeague was that the CL record would be transferred to it, so they would be record holders since day 1.

[The Larch]

Doesn't seem to be too much rage from Italy and Spain?
Or am I just missing something?
Maybe a Spanish-Italian league could be a halfway compromise?

Sports media over here are overwhelmingly pro-Madrid/Barça, so they won't really criticize them very harshly. The Madrid press also happens to be absolutely infatuated by Florentino Pérez.

Also there's a not insignificant amount of big club fans (mostly Real Madrid, I'd say) that would indeed want such a competition and arrogantly think that the national league is kinda sorta beneath them because they're really meant to only play in the biggest events. I see lots of online comments from Real Madrid fans lionizing Florentino as a champion against UEFA corruption, trying to spin the whole thing as a rebellion against the establishment (which couldn't be more disingenious, but it's there) and taking a stand against the oil sheiks and so on.

On top of that in Spanish football fans there's an ingrained sense of resignation about big clubs always getting things their way and inequality being inherent to the game. I mean, R. Madrid and Barcelona had to be arm-twisted by law into a fairer split of TV revenues, for Hod's sake.

I loved Pérez's interview where he constantly reminded people that "they" (Real Madrid) founded the European Cup, and now they were doing it again. Incidentally, one of the most hilarious provisions of the SuperLeague was that the CL record would be transferred to it, so they would be record holders since day 1.

I'm still kinda surprised about how little fallout has been regarding some of the stuff he said during the interview. He admitted that Real Madrid has lost hundreds of millions during the last couple of years when Real Madrid was still presenting a profit in their official accounts until last december and is always boasting about their flawless economic management that allows them to have record earnings year after year. You can't have both things, either he was lying in the interview or he has been lying for years about their creative book-keeping, and nobody bats an eyelid.

[Gups]

yes and no 

The working class are already exceedingly pissed-off here in the UK and now there was an attempt to take their game from them; it has turned out to be a damp squib but it is also an entry on a long list.

Part of the game being taken away narrative was because people in positions of power and influence found it in their interests to promote the narrative that the game was being taken from them.

No. It was because the game was being taken away from them. No narrative was needed, it was bleeding obvious.

Can you clarify how so?

So many reasons. The removal of any power from clubs outside the six and from the national associations. The ability to make their own rules including playing games at venues around the world. The removal of promotion and relegation. It would be a completely different game, no longer connected to English football, its rivalries and its history. In fact no longer a game, just a form of entertainment in which "legacy fans" might provide a little local colour to a worldwide market. That's why the fans of Chelsea, Liverpool etc hated the idea so much. They would no longer have a connection to their club, the one their fathers and grandfathers supported. 

[Sheilbh]

With reference to the press release issued by Juventus Football Club on 19 April 2021, relating to the project to create the Super League, and the subsequent public debate, the Issuer specifies that it is aware of the request and intentions otherwise expressed by some clubs to withdraw from this project, although the necessary procedures under the agreement between the clubs have not been completed. In this context, Juventus, while remaining convinced of the validity of the sporting, commercial and legal assumptions of the project, believes that it currently has limited possibilities of being completed in the form in which it was initially conceived. Juventus remains committed to building long-term value for the club and for the entire football movement.

"Limited possibilities of being completed" is up there with "the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage" in euphemisms

Sports media over here are overwhelmingly pro-Madrid/Barça, so they won't really criticize them very harshly. The Madrid press also happens to be absolutely infatuated by Florentino Pérez.

Is there not a similar culture of fan media? A lot of it is just purely tribal/partisan/"the world's against us" stuff (I think especially with the more successful/bigger clubs because entitlement) - but a lot of it goes against club ownership if they think they're betraying the values of the club - so Liverpool and Spurs fan media both reacted furiously and forced a reversal on some of those clubs cutting costs during covid etc. That's been a big thing here - it's not the fans of the other 14 v the 6. All the fan groups of the 6 and their fan media like the Anfield Wrap were against this proposal - and have now moved to full-blown FSG out positions.

Maybe because there's less politics/engagement by ownership in the UK there is a stronger separation of the club from the owners here? This is the latest in a long line of owners being perceived as taking advantage of/just ripping off fans using their club. Abramovich and Sheikh Mansour are fairly insulated from that because they're very popular - but there's a huge amount of resentment of the Glazers, ENIC, Kroenke, increasingly FSG which isn't a million miles away from the sort of resentment of Mike Ashley that you see with Newcastle fans. It doesn't necessarily change anything (all of those owners are still in place) but maybe changes the culture a little?

Also there's a not insignificant amount of big club fans (mostly Real Madrid, I'd say) that would indeed want such a competition and arrogantly think that the national league is kinda sorta beneath them because they're really meant to only play in the biggest events.

So I think this is a key difference - and here I think Madrid and Barcelona are arguably victims of their own success. They get so much money from their broadcast deal and there's so little revenue sharing that La Liga has been relatively less competitive, which means it's a less attractive prospect for broadcasters, which means they earn less money for European competitions.

I think the sense that the Premier League is still quite competitive, especially for the top 6-7 positions probably strengthens opposition here. I almost wonder if "big 6" fans would be more supportive of this if City had won the league last season? If it became clear City were establishing a dynasty and even an exellent Liverpool team couldn't topple them I wonder if there'd be a bit more support of breaking away and going into this wage controlled Super League?

I'm still kinda surprised about how little fallout has been regarding some of the stuff he said during the interview. He admitted that Real Madrid has lost hundreds of millions during the last couple of years when Real Madrid was still presenting a profit in their official accounts until last december and is always boasting about their flawless economic management that allows them to have record earnings year after year. You can't have both things, either he was lying in the interview or he has been lying for years about their creative book-keeping, and nobody bats an eyelid.

I can't remember who it ws who pointed it out - but it's not exactly surprising that this really half-arsed plan was in part a big project of two men whose previous big business plans have been spending €200 million between them on a 33 year old Ronaldo and 29 year old Hazard

[Tamas]

But this wasn't meant as a breakaway from the national leagues.

[celedhring]

Is there not a similar culture of fan media? A lot of it is just purely tribal/partisan/"the world's against us" stuff (I think especially with the more successful/bigger clubs because entitlement) - but a lot of it goes against club ownership if they think they're betraying the values of the club - so Liverpool and Spurs fan media both reacted furiously and forced a reversal on some of those clubs cutting costs during covid etc. That's been a big thing here - it's not the fans of the other 14 v the 6. All the fan groups of the 6 and their fan media like the Anfield Wrap were against this proposal - and have now moved to full-blown FSG out positions.

Maybe because there's less politics/engagement by ownership in the UK there is a stronger separation of the club from the owners here? This is the latest in a long line of owners being perceived as taking advantage of/just ripping off fans using their club. Abramovich and Sheikh Mansour are fairly insulated from that because they're very popular - but there's a huge amount of resentment of the Glazers, ENIC, Kroenke, increasingly FSG which isn't a million miles away from the sort of resentment of Mike Ashley that you see with Newcastle fans. It doesn't necessarily change anything (all of those owners are still in place) but maybe changes the culture a little?

There has never been a strong culture of football fan media in Spain - at least in Catalonia. One of the reasons, imho, is how partisan and tribal our sports media are, so they kinda substitute it up to a point. So Barcelona has a couple of sports newspapers that are pro-Barça, Madrid have their two which are pro-Madrid. These clubs' boards always try to cultivate a relationship with them, so they tend to be complacent, in particular if the board is in a strong position. Access is a very strong weapon when these newspapers are absolutely dependent on reporting about one single club.

I also think the fact that - at least for Barça - unpopular boards have a limited shelf life prevents the kind of culture around persistent, organized opposition to ownership from developing. The few organized opposition groups we have had, have never made it past an election cycle.

[Sheilbh]

Excellent Miguel Delaney piece which touches on some of the fall-out from Perez's interview and really captures how amateur this was.

I listened to a podcast recorded before it fell apart and they thought it would go ahead and were talking about what happens next which also drove home how badly planned this was. If you were planning a new league as Larch said you'd probably have all the club presidents/chairs/owners making the announcement together; you'd have lined up your broadcasters for the first few seasons; you'd probably already have sponsors ready to announce; you'd have given your players and managers PR lines and tried to win them over. That's aside from lining up support from government and regulators. And literally none of that appears to have been done in advance of this - it was like Super League of dreams - you know, if we announce it they will come

'A toxic endeavour': How Super League went from breakaway to breakdown

A staggering 72 hours for the game has seen clubs try to force a move to a new competition only to see fan backlash and outcry see it stutter and stumble towards collapse
Miguel Delaney
Chief Football Writer
@MiguelDelaney

As the news spread around boardrooms, and some ashen-faced officials realised the European Super League project was starting to collapse, the true meaning of it all could - fittingly - be seen on the streets and among the people.

Thousands of Chelsea supporters had gathered around Stamford Bridge to vociferously protest the plans when it suddenly went quiet. Shortly before 7pm, the word came through that the club were preparing to withdraw from the project.

The reaction was a moment to behold. It was celebrated as joyously as any goal, but it was really so much more. It was a victory.

It was a testament to the power of fans, given Manchester City and Chelsea were so convinced by the emotion of their own supporters.

It was also the start of one of the most remarkable single hours the game has ever known, a whirlwind of sensational developments that brought a staggering three days to a head.

City very quickly followed Chelsea out of the project, with the rest of the English clubs following four hours later. Ed Woodward resigned as executive vice-chairman of Manchester United, and many other figures from the Super League were considering what next. There is now huge pressure on some of the individuals, not least primary agitators like Andrea Agnelli and Florentino Perez.

A greedy power grab, that had caused more unifying fury than the game had ever known, instead became an embarrassing collapse. Some of the most oppressively big clubs in football, as well as some of its most obnoxious and reviled figures, have faced a humiliation of huge proportions. It is worse than any on-pitch defeat, any "6-1". The big clubs, this time, didn't get their way.

The tumultuous route from breakaway to breaking point really started the previous evening.

Some officials were genuinely taken aback by the scale and vociferousness of what was near total condemnation of the project. It had even been a rare issue that had "100 per cent united the UK parliament".

The obvious question is what exactly did they expect? That alone reflects many of the follies and misjudgements at the very core of this project.

"I thought it would be bad," one source said, "but this is off the charts".

Later on Monday, what was no doubt intended as a victory lap of a TV appearance by Mr Perez further sowed the seeds of defeat.

Some officials among the Super League 12 were aghast at the tone of the Real Madrid president, and even some of the things he said. Among a few untruths, Mr Perez claimed Paris Saint-Germain had not been invited. A series of sources insist they were not just invited, but "cajoled", "lobbied" and "pressured".

It was the same with Bayern Munich, and the fact they issued a second statement on Tuesday to more strongly reiterate their rejection of the project was just another mounting problem for the Super League.

The absence of "European" in that description is pointed. This was really a three-country league, and the 12 involved were becoming increasingly isolated. Many involved knew a "conciliatory" tone was needed, far removed from the typical abrasiveness of Mr Perez. Because an absolutely crucial point was missing in much of the narrative.

The Super League - regardless of anything else - was ultimately going to need sanctioning from either Fifa or Uefa. That was an inescapable reality, that was properly dawning on some of the involved clubs. It was why Uefa were always fully confident this would fail.

The 48 hours since the announcement hadn't exactly made that long path for the Super League any easier. Some involved in the plan began to realise the need for more positive public relations, but the key figures weren't interested in speaking publicly.

It was one grand act of cowardice to go with everything else.

Concerns were growing, though, and not just in England. Officials at Atletico Madrid and Barcelona had also been wondering about the worth of all this.

Word of this got back to Uefa, and sources maintain it was this that caused a hugely distinctive change of tone on Tuesday morning.

Aleksander Ceferin offered an olive branch, and a way back. It was conspicuously far removed from the fire and brimstone of Monday. "What matters is that there is still time to change your mind," the Uefa president said.

It was around this point that the media began to report all of these doubts, which prompted some Super League sources to absolutely insist that, no, nobody was changing their mind.

They were strident that everyone was 100 per cent committed, "full steam ahead", "they'd prepared for this", all the rest. There was even bullish talk of how it might be legally impossible for clubs to leave, because of the existing contracts, and how punitive any damages might be.

The preliminary legal ruling in Madrid, "prohibiting Uefa and Fifa from stopping the launch", was also referenced.

There was a development in London, though, that was potentially much more relevant from a legal perspective.

Boris Johnson, emboldened by his typical populist opportunism and - more significantly - the support of his entire parliament, told the English football authorities he would give them full backing in terms of legislation. Mr Johnson asked the Premier League and EFL what sanctions were available to them. When they said everything up to and including banishing the six from the Premier League, he asked would they use it.

The answer at that point was "no" because the legal proceedings could be opened according to competition law. Mr Johnson's response was to say he would drop a "legislative bomb". Many sources take that to mean that, if there was a clause in competition law that would prevent the clubs being thrown out, he would use full power to have it removed.

The potential banishment of the six biggest clubs in England from the Premier League was at this point seriously being considered. It would have scuppered many new financial plans before they even started. Some sources from within the English big six say that the speed and strength of government intervention was immensely influential. "That's when it really changed." It was also why there was a sense of confidence at the Premier League's 11am meeting, a landmark in itself in that it only featured 14 of the stakeholders. That would previously have been seen as unbelievable, but here fostered trust between that group.

While fan protest only continued, adding more and more pressure, there was increasing unrest among the players.

The possibility of being banned from the World Cup was a much more serious issue than some club officials had anticipated. Players were hugely distressed by this. That again only showed how out of touch the whole project was with the reality of the game.

Club administration and legal teams were meanwhile poring over sponsorship contracts, trying to work out the implication of it all. This was no way clear and proving hugely complicated, which only added to the difficulties. Sponsors were getting unnerved.

Within the boardrooms and internet meetings, then, debate was growing. Talks were getting more feverish. Figures at Chelsea began to talk of a "toxic endeavour", that was at odds with their community work as a club, as well as the immense potential for irrevocable reputational damage.

Super League sources had insisted upon the "robustness" of the body of work behind the plan, but others were talking about the lack of substance behind it. The fact it has utterly imploded in just 48 hours is as hilarious as it is indicative of that. The entire "launch" ended up feeling amateurish. There were supposedly 15 founding members yet only 12 were named. The level of detail was pitiful. Some people referred to it as little more than a "mass refinancing for about five clubs". Many pointed to the problems of Real Madrid.

"Why is the rest of football financing this," one source at a Premier League club complained, "when one of the leading figures has his club hundreds of millions of pounds in debt?"

Chelsea and City were beginning to come to the only logical conclusion. This was unviable, and just not worth the needless strife. The other clubs should have realised the same, but City and Chelsea going made their withdrawal an inevitability. The Super League's spectacular collapse could yet take others with it.

Mr Perez has been publicly humiliated, with that all the worse because a moment of televised hubris saw him essentially admit Madrid are in huge financial trouble. Another self-inflicted defeat. His position at the club is said to be unassailable, but pressure outside is growing. His authority has been demolished. Mr Agnelli's big hand was meanwhile no more than a bluff.

Other people in football are openly talking about whether it will lead to the sales of Manchester United, Liverpool and Tottenham Hotspur.

The Super League was after all a long-term ambition, always hovering over the game, always on the horizon. Many long believed it was the ultimate aim of some owners. The threat of a Super League conditioned the game in subtle and significant ways for decades, as so many crunch meetings bent to it. Its power has now gone. That is an immensely significant development in itself. A long-held threat can never be used in the same way again. That card has been played, to little effect other than laughter by the end. The idea has lost its credibility for some time to come - although maybe not forever

This is another reality of the situation. The structural inequality that led to the growth of these super clubs, and the path to the Super League, hasn't been changed.

The reformatting of the Champions League that was done at their behest will only make the problem worse.

But that isn't the only development amid all this. The financial cost for the 12 will be expensive, given the JP Morgan commitment fees. There might well be Premier League sanctions, since the six did break Rule L9, that prohibits members from entering unsanctioned competitions. The other 14 have meanwhile been emboldened, and also found common cause with the EFL and the wider football pyramid. At the top of it all, the breakaway 12 no longer have the same influence in the European Club Association, or Uefa. Positions have been resigned. Clout has been lost. Authority has been shattered.

That points to perhaps the most significant change.

Some of football's more selfless figures are talking about how this might have finally released the huge impetus for reform. There is now a political will for a German system in England alone.

"A Super League is terrible for football and could have led to the wreckage of the game," one source said. "From the point of view of the reform agenda, though, it's great."

Something has been tapped into. The crisis has made people realise the deep problems that almost brought the game to the brink of irrevocable transformation. Politicians - for now - properly realise the need to protect clubs as social institutions and prevent the scope for this in future.

That was one of the fundamental problems here. A laissez-faire embrace of ultra-capitalism had allowed a group of clubs to grow to such a size, that they were appealing to interests - both political and financial - that had little concern for the playing of the game or the social role of clubs.

That was what led to the history and future of the game potentially being obliterated by a small group of owners, that left everyone else feeling utterly powerless.

At Stamford Bridge, the wider game took its power back. There was the feel of a revolution, even if some say it might prove to be an Arab Spring.

Whatever the future, it fully displayed the true spirit of the sport, and the communal power that really drives it. The pyramid, the sport, has stayed unified.