Football (Soccer) Thread

[alfred russel]

In the future a European league might make more sense too but as I say this seems to include the worst elements of both American and European sport - so there's no salary structure or real wage control or draft to create competition within a closed system, and there's no relegation or promotion so there's no competition within an open system. I think there's principled reasons to not like it, but I also think it's not an interesting sporting idea.

In the long term I think it's clear that, especially American owners, want to impose some form of wage control in some way. But we're nowhere near there yet.

The US system isn't just wage controls: there are salary caps combined with salary minimums and extensive revenue sharing (NFL being the best example, MLB being a poor one). You don't need a truly closed system to generate this: but it doesn't work if Barcelona and Real Madrid are in a league with a team from a shit town in the countryside. Which effectively means you would need to stop promotion and relegation and you need some sort of pan european league: else shit teams from the countryside are going to be included.

The top players and the owners should be financially aligned in wanting to maximize revenue.

[Sheilbh]

The US system isn't just wage controls: there are salary caps combined with salary minimums and extensive revenue sharing (NFL being the best example, MLB being a poor one). You don't need a truly closed system to generate this: but it doesn't work if Barcelona and Real Madrid are in a league with a team from a shit town in the countryside. Which effectively means you would need to stop promotion and relegation and you need some sort of pan european league: else shit teams from the countryside are going to be included.

The top players and the owners should be financially aligned in wanting to maximize revenue.

Yeah but I think one of the big drivers for this is that the Americans, the Spanish Clubs and generally the Italian clubs are real businesses who want to maximise revenue and turn a profit. They are competing in European leagues and domestically with clubs that are not primarily businesses to make a profit. They're owned by nation states for reputation laundering or oligarchs as an expensive hobby.

I'm not really sure the shit country team makes that much difference in terms of lost revenue compared to the amount you have to spend to keep up with clubs who are willing and able to drop €50-60 million on squad players.

Atletico and Barca apparently backing out - the Americans are holding firm. All 12 clubs are having a call tonight which I imagine will be explosive

[Tamas]

Queue Chelsea being non-English jokes... oh wait, no, they have been the first to listen to their fans!

[Sheilbh]

Queue Chelsea being non-English jokes... oh wait, no, they have been the first to listen to their fans!

Who makes Chelsea being non-English jokes?

I thought that was aimed at Arsenal - weren't they first to field an entirely non-English team?

[Barrister]

Queue Chelsea being non-English jokes... oh wait, no, they have been the first to listen to their fans!

Who makes Chelsea being non-English jokes?

I thought that was aimed at Arsenal - weren't they first to field an entirely non-English team?

You know how much I follow the EPL but I seem to recall people making fun of Tamas for being a fan of "Chelski".

[Jacob]

Sheilbh, do you have links to the various clubs backing out? I'd like to savour the collapse in detail 

[Barrister]

https://www.espn.com/soccer/chelsea/story/4365271/sources-chelseaman-city-to-ask-out-of-super-league-in-shock-reversal

[Sheilbh]

Yeah but that's because they're owned by a Russian oligarch - and were the first to bought by someone with masses of money. It just changed the game when Abramovich came in. Then Man City were bought by Abu Dhabi

English football is not particularly English owned

Arsenal, Manchester United, Burnley, Fulham and Liverpool are owned by Yanks. Wolves are owned by a Chinese company who've also invested in an agents' company (he often represents the selling club, buying club and the player in engineering some unusual transfers ). Sheffield are owned by a Saudi Prince and Man City by Abu Dhabi. My club are owned by a British-Iranian accountant who is close personal friends with another Russian oligarch. Leicester are owned by a Thai company - it's crazy how much Leicester advertising you see in Bangkok. And that's just off the top of my head.

According to TalkSport the Super League is off

[Sheilbh]

Sheilbh, do you have links to the various clubs backing out? I'd like to savour the collapse in detail 

Largely just following the Guardian liveblog.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/live/2021/apr/20/european-super-league-backlash-builds-against-breakaway-plan-live

Ed Woodward has also stepped down as chairman of Man United - this must be a failure bigger than Moyes, van Gaal, Mourinho and the hundreds of millions of transfer fees he's spent on players who've disappointed

[The Larch]

It is now being rumoured that all 6 English teams are pulling out and that Woodward is stepping down as chairman from Man United.

[Sheilbh]

It is now being rumoured that all 6 English teams are pulling out and that Woodward is stepping down as chairman from Man United.

A Spurs supporting fan just said they'll stay until the end so they can claim the Super League trophy

[FunkMonk]

Incredible scenes now that the attempted coup has failed.

Woodward resigning. Rumors the Glazers want to cash out. Angelli resigning. Seismic event happening now.

Meanwhile Stan Kroenke sits on the toilet.

[Tamas]

Some point somewhere that it was the oligarchs pulling out first, which would make sense, for them it's always been a prestige ticket to civilised society. The Americans are actually in it to make money, so they want(ed) to stick with the profit-making option.

[Sheilbh]

Some point somewhere that it was the oligarchs pulling out first, which would make sense, for them it's always been a prestige ticket to civilised society. The Americans are actually in it to make money, so they want(ed) to stick with the profit-making option.

Yeah - the yanks, Spurs, the Spanish clubs and the Italians generally want to make money so were first in and last out. Chelsea and Man City don't care and were last in, first out.

God I'd pay good money to read the "risks" section of the proposal for this

Edit: Also this tweet is very fair:

Raphael Honigstein
@honigstein
Earlier, I've put it to a German club official that the Super League 12 must have some really clever ideas to get around all the obstacles, relative to the huge reputational risk they're facing.

Answer: "Never underestimate the incompetence of people."

[alfred russel]

Yeah but I think one of the big drivers for this is that the Americans, the Spanish Clubs and generally the Italian clubs are real businesses who want to maximise revenue and turn a profit. They are competing in European leagues and domestically with clubs that are not primarily businesses to make a profit. They're owned by nation states for reputation laundering or oligarchs as an expensive hobby.

I'm not really sure the shit country team makes that much difference in terms of lost revenue compared to the amount you have to spend to keep up with clubs who are willing and able to drop €50-60 million on squad players.

Atletico and Barca apparently backing out - the Americans are holding firm. All 12 clubs are having a call tonight which I imagine will be explosive

Sheilbh, you are thinking about this from the wrong perspective.

There are 32 teams in the NFL playing 16 games a season - 256 games. Total TV revenue is over $8 billion.

There are 20 teams in the EPL, playing 38 matches a season - 380 matches. Total TV revenue is just over $5 billion.

There is almost certainly more passion in the EPL in the UK than for the NFL in America (which has multiple competing sports), but if you own a major team in the EPL your TV product is diluted by having to play shit teams (not must see TV) AND by having audiences distracted by other leagues. What do you think the TV rights would be for a league of the top 20 teams across all of Europe? I assume it would be several times what the EPL contract is worth.