Football (Soccer) Thread

[Tamas]

I wonder if this will help the development of better National teams. Especially for England.

Unlikely.

What should be is a European Super League A, B, with promotions and relegations. Below these the national leagues. So if you stayed in one of the Super Leagues you don't play your national league next season, but if you got relegated from SL B you do play the national league to get back into it.

This sounds absolutely horrible. 

It is the exact same model applied within each country individually, raised to a European level.

Yes, that's why it's horrible.

Ok, boomer.

[FunkMonk]

Yeah, I think the origin point of all this was when Russian oligarchs, oil sheikhs, and American investors began buying up clubs, so more like early 2000s.

[Sheilbh]

I like the socialist / anti-capitalist spin the Guardian live commentary is attempting.  As if the People's Sport is being overtaken by Evil Capitalists, as if that has not happened 70 years ago.

I love that you, perhaps subconsciously, mark the decline of football from the end of the magical Magyars era

This is fairly consistent with the Guardian's line on football - both English and international though. David Conn is for my money one of the best football reporters out there especially on the financial side and has really (in the English press) been peerless on covering FIFA, Hillsborough and the Premier League. But looking at the Guardian's reporting on the National League and Bury for example it's not as if this line is new - their podcast has also done (very interesting) specials on football's relationship with gambling companies and football and climate.

Would also strengthen a European identity instead of this nation state nonsense.

Because if there's one thing we can learn from football leagues around the world, it's that it doesn't strengthen local identity? (Also no-one supports a club in the Champion's League because they're English/Spanish/Italian or whatever - the fans of that club support them and everyone else hates them, unless they're playing PSG )

I'd personally have zero interest in a European league. Football has already become homogenous and global enough - there's an "elite" style now which can be very good to watch. But it's rarely surprising. I like the parochial in football - the local derbies (all over Europe and the world), the different stadiums and fanbases and atmospheres.

And I've no idea how it would work in relation to the pyramids of every country - is it just for the top or a European pyramid presumably on a regional basis like the National League?

[Sheilbh]

Yeah, I think the origin point of all this was when Russian oligarchs, oil sheikhs, and American investors began buying up clubs, so more like early 2000s.

Yeah or the breakaway of the Premier League - which was not unlike this.

[FunkMonk]

I wonder if this will help the development of better National teams. Especially for England.

Unlikely.

What should be is a European Super League A, B, with promotions and relegations. Below these the national leagues. So if you stayed in one of the Super Leagues you don't play your national league next season, but if you got relegated from SL B you do play the national league to get back into it.

This sounds absolutely horrible. 

It is the exact same model applied within each country individually, raised to a European level.

Yes, that's why it's horrible.

Ok, boomer.

I need my nationalism channeled into sports, not nuclear war   

[Duque de Bragança]

More developments:

- The German clubs that were expected to participate as founders (Bayer Munich and Borussia Dortmund) have issued a joint statement refusing to take part on it.
- Two clubs that were apparently approached to be invited but refused were RB Leipzig and Porto.
- There seems to have been a certain level of bandwagon effect in some of the ESL founders, with some that are not super convinced about it but feel it's a somehow inevitable development and don't want to be left out from it. The two clubs named in this group were Man City and Chelsea.

Indeed, Pinto da Costa, FC Porto "president", as in elected by sócios, says contacts were informal, through other clubs.

I wonder what the Sócios of Real Madrid, Barça or Atlético (they seem less powerful in Atlético though) think or would think about the ESL, assuming a yes or no vote would be organized.

[The Larch]

Yeah, I think the origin point of all this was when Russian oligarchs, oil sheikhs, and American investors began buying up clubs, so more like early 2000s.

Yeah or the breakaway of the Premier League - which was not unlike this.

But did the formation of the Premier League really change competition so much? I'd say that the creation of the Champions League is a more relevant development for that "globalization" trend.

[The Larch]

More developments:

- The German clubs that were expected to participate as founders (Bayer Munich and Borussia Dortmund) have issued a joint statement refusing to take part on it.
- Two clubs that were apparently approached to be invited but refused were RB Leipzig and Porto.
- There seems to have been a certain level of bandwagon effect in some of the ESL founders, with some that are not super convinced about it but feel it's a somehow inevitable development and don't want to be left out from it. The two clubs named in this group were Man City and Chelsea.

Indeed, Pinto da Costa, FC Porto "president", as in elected by sócios, says contacts were informal, through other clubs.

I wonder what the Sócios of Real Madrid, Barça or Atlético (they seem less powerful in Atlético though) think or would think about the ESL, assuming a yes or no vote would be organized.

Atlético is not owned by it's "socios", only Real Madrid and Barcelona retain that ownership model (as well as Athletic Bilbao and Osasuna, but they're besides the point), but it's increasingly shown to be a façade. Real Madrid will do whatever Florentino Pérez wants, as he has accumulated so much power that whatever the socios want is irrelevant. Barcelona is a different case, as cel mentioned, but in their case the economic argument could be the one that makes them go ahead with this.

[FunkMonk]

https://twitter.com/Orbinho/status/1384063188216414212?s=19

Major Honours in the Last 30 years (League, main cup, Europe)

🇮🇹 AC Milan 15
🇮🇹 Inter 13
🇮🇹 Juventus 23

🇪🇸 Atletico 11
🇪🇸 Barcelona 38
🇪🇸 Real Madrid 29

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Arsenal 13
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Liverpool 11
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Man City 6
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Man Utd 23
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Chelsea 17
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Tottenham 0

[Duque de Bragança]

More developments:

- The German clubs that were expected to participate as founders (Bayer Munich and Borussia Dortmund) have issued a joint statement refusing to take part on it.
- Two clubs that were apparently approached to be invited but refused were RB Leipzig and Porto.
- There seems to have been a certain level of bandwagon effect in some of the ESL founders, with some that are not super convinced about it but feel it's a somehow inevitable development and don't want to be left out from it. The two clubs named in this group were Man City and Chelsea.

Indeed, Pinto da Costa, FC Porto "president", as in elected by sócios, says contacts were informal, through other clubs.

I wonder what the Sócios of Real Madrid, Barça or Atlético (they seem less powerful in Atlético though) think or would think about the ESL, assuming a yes or no vote would be organized.

Atlético is not owned by it's "socios", only Real Madrid and Barcelona retain that ownership model (as well as Athletic Bilbao and Osasuna, but they're besides the point), but it's increasingly shown to be a façade. Real Madrid will do whatever Florentino Pérez wants, as he has accumulated so much power that whatever the socios want is irrelevant. Barcelona is a different case, as cel mentioned, but in their case the economic argument could be the one that makes them go ahead with this.

Yeah, I just saw that sócios only owned 2 % of Atlético, so it's basically nothing.

So basically, the ESL referendum would be a yes, if needed, given Barça's dire financial situation and the end of the Messi era.

[The Larch]

Atlético has shareholders, not socios. They're established as a private sports company. Real Madrid and Barcelona retain the old sports club model.

[The Larch]

Rumours about Ajax being in the running for one of the still to be filled spots.

[Josquius]

I do wonder where this will leave the Premier League.
Will it weaken the top teams? Or will they become rich enough to just buy two title winning teams?

[Sheilbh]

But did the formation of the Premier League really change competition so much? I'd say that the creation of the Champions League is a more relevant development for that "globalization" trend.

Maybe - from an English perspective it's the start of the hyper-commercialisation.

But I think the Premier League provides a model - and was also linked to the emergence of satellite TV which I think is transformative - which hugely increased the money in English football which is why the lesson clubs maybe took from that was it's worth the short-term pain and outrage that we're seeing now. But I also think the satellite TV boom actually just increased football which was huge for globalisation.

Growing up in the 90s my generation all watched Football Italia which was on terrestrial TV, but I think with satellite TV you get the start of all the teams watching each other and not just needing to do lots of scouting ahead of games. Once satellite TV starts, it's the end of some team from behind the Iron Curtain popping up in European competition and surprising everyone. But also it's the start of football clubs realising, based on the broadcasters, that the game itself isn't the product it's the spectacle - there's all of the rules post-Heysel/Hillsborough/Bradford and stadium improvements in England and across Europe. Even down to simple things like I read from the NYT that one thing broadcasters did in the Premier League was make the mics face the crowd to capture the "spectacle" of the fans, Serie A point into the pitch to hear the players but this apparently makes for a less marketable product from a TV perspective.

But I think it all connects basically in that early 90s period - you have satellite TV, money starting to flood into English football leading to its Europeanisation (Gullit, Vialli, Zola, Ravanelli, Cantona), broadcasters starting to work out what this football "product" they're selling is, clubs breaking away/realising their leverage against national football associations, the Bosman ruling, the Champions League, the collapse of communism etc. That would be the point I'd look to for football's "loss of innocence" for the Guardian to bemoan

[Tamas]

I do wonder where this will leave the Premier League.
Will it weaken the top teams? Or will they become rich enough to just buy two title winning teams?

That depends on whether the war over who controls what % of football profits ends up with these teams booted from the PL. Which it probably won't.