Football (Soccer) Thread

[Zoupa]

Je viens d'Orleans, pas d'OM pour nous.

D'habitude on prenait pour Auxerre, qui viennent de remonter apparemment. Je suis plus trop la Ligue 1.

[Duque de Bragança]

Je viens d'Orleans, pas d'OM pour nous.

D'habitude on prenait pour Auxerre, qui viennent de remonter apparemment. Je suis plus trop la Ligue 1.

This will be my weekly report on Tottenham, my newly adopted club. I still have a soft spot for OM (Olympique de Marseille), but Ligue 1 is kind of a joke now so whatever.

Girouette et sens de la géographie à la Macron ?    Orléans est plus près de Paris que d'Auxerre. 
Lui aussi "supporter" de l'OM, et encore plus au nord qu'Orléans (Amiens). Même l'OM ne méritait pas ça.

Macron étant bien sûr complètement à l'ouest, et a perdu le nord, cela va sans dire.

Oui, Auxerre est de retour (grand moments dans les années 90) but Saint-Étienne (numéro un des années 70) est relégué.[/quote]

[Sheilbh]

How is it Macron's fault ?

If there's issues with the policing I think it's fair to blame the government. Similarly that the false narrative about what happened is being pushed by his ministers and the police - I think it's fair to hold him responsible as leader of that government.

Having said that even away from sporting events, from what I've seen French police always look very heavy handed to me and extremely quick to turn to tear gas and baton charges. So it may just reflect that - that this is how the French police police this area in general and this time there were football fans from other countries and the world's press to see it.

Edit: And again some of these stories - from people who are very unlikely to have fake tickets or be involved in any fan disorder - are really grim:

Steve Douglas, a reporter with Associated Press, was accosted by a police officer who bundled him into a security hut and threatened to remove his accreditation unless he deleted the video footage he had captured outside the ground.

Robbie Fowler, the Liverpool legend, spent most of the first half outside. His son, Jacob, and brother Scott were among those caught up in the carnage. Jason McAteer, another former Reds player, said his wife was mugged and his son was attacked. Jim Beglin, a double-winner with the Reds in 1986, called the scenes "reprehensible."

Mike Gordon, one of Liverpool's owners, and Marvin Matip, brother of Reds defender Joel, were also among the melee. Matip sheltered in a local restauarant with his pregnant girlfriend. Andy Robertson revealed that one of his friends had been refused entry, accused of presenting a fake ticket.

"He luckily managed to get in because one of the club representatives sorted it," Robertson told reporters afterwards. "But they said it was a fake, which I can assure you it wasn't, so I think they were making it up at times and panicked.

"For me it shouldn't really happen, UEFA should have been better organised."

Edit: And fair to say the French press is pushing on this - again it's the line from Macron's minister so it seems fair to have a go at the government over this. Liberation tomorrow, but I've also seen reporting from Figaro that contradicts the government's line:

[Tamas]

[Sheilbh]

I'm a sucker for the emotional side of football, but Scotland-Ukraine was very good.

[Sheilbh]

Separately - Mayor of Liverpool recounting his experience at the final. Meanwhile according to the Guardian Weekly podcast's Philippe Auclair the Mayor of the 12th Arrondissement (where the Liverpool fanzone was) has sent a letter to the club basically thanking them for the final and a very enjoyable experience with well-behaved fans:

'I'm in pieces again': Paris final fiasco triggers Hillsborough survivor trauma
Two Liverpool fans, who were both present at the 1989 disaster, recount grim experiences of a chaotic Champions League final
Andy Hunter
@AHunterGuardian
Tue 31 May 2022 08.00 BST

Kevin Cowley is a 50-year-old driving examiner, a former Metropolitan police officer and a survivor of the Hillsborough disaster. He was in pen three on 15 April 1989, where many of the 97 Liverpool fans were unlawfully killed at the FA Cup semi-final. On Saturday he attended the Champions League final between Jürgen Klopp's team and Real Madrid at Stade de France. His experience of Uefa's showpiece event reopened a 33-year-old trauma.

"I am in pieces again," said Cowley. His voice, breaking with emotion, testifies to that. "It took me years to get over Hillsborough and I feel like I've just relived Hillsborough again. Saturday was horrendous. I want to vocalise this because I spent so many years bottling up Hillsborough and that did so much to me that I have to do something this time. I want to talk."

Cowley purchased a £125 ticket for the final through Liverpool. At 6.15pm on Saturday, two-and-three-quarter hours before the scheduled kick-off, he made his way to the stadium with a friend. "There was already a massive buildup of Liverpool fans trying to get to the ground," he says. "We thought they must have put something in place to check tickets and bags, as they did in Madrid [for the 2019 Champions League final].

"We arrived at an underpass where the police kettled everybody. It was getting tighter and tighter. I hate crowds, I can't do them. I have a mechanism for Anfield where I won't get in that position. I had to climb over a fence because it was getting so tight, along with people of all ages. Then we came to another underpass where the police had parked vans across the road. The sheer weight of people meant I was forced against the bonnet of a police van."

Steve Rotheram is the Liverpool City Region Mayor. He was also at Hillsborough and was also in Paris on Saturday, having received a ticket from Uefa. He also had to climb a fence on his way up to the stadium. "I had my phone, money, debit cards, ID and match ticket stolen," says the former MP for Liverpool Walton. "We were directed down a road and after about 400 yards there were two riot vans blocking the way.

"Riot police told us to climb over a fence. I had my jacket in two hands but had to release it from one hand to climb over the fence, and as I was pulling my coat over these dippers went into my pocket. It was literally a second. These were professional gangs. They knew it was rich pickings for them and lots of people got their phones and wallets taken.

"I walked over to the police to tell them I'd had everything stolen and one of them said: 'Welcome to Paris.' Some Liverpool fans shouted to them: "He's our mayor." Two French lads who had come over to help translated to the gendarme, who were nonplussed until one of the lads Googled me and showed it to a gendarme. He immediately took me through to get a duplicate ticket."

Once inside the VIP section of the stadium Rotheram asked Gianni Infantino, the president of Fifa, and former French president Nicolas Sarkozy to do something about the chaos outside, where fans were being teargassed by police. Infantino was "amenable" but allegedly said "it wasn't Fifa's jurisdiction". Sarkozy was moved on.

Rotheram then spotted Uefa's president, Aleksander Ceferin. "I politely introduced myself and explained what I'd witnessed and the concerns I had," he explains. "He seemed oblivious to it. He said to me: 'We've only had three months to organise this, we've killed ourselves to get this game on.' To which I replied: 'I'm more concerned that people aren't killed outside'. He indicated that I was being disrespectful. I just couldn't take my seat and watch the game in the end. I was just devastated at what could have happened outside."

Cowley was outside for approximately two hours before gaining access. His ticket was for turnstile Y but, with the queue along a fence not moving, he went to turnstile X. "It was like a war zone," he says. "The crash barriers were on the floor, there was a massive rush on the turnstile by local lads, who were climbing over the fencing and having a full-scale fight on the other side with the stewards and police. There was a lad in a wheelchair who everyone tried to form a bubble around. I kept getting pushed into him and kept apologising.

"I was thinking: 'It's happening all over again.' It was the same thing [as Hillsborough]. I told my mate I was going to walk away but we got to the turnstile, which kept blinking red as if it wasn't working. I put my ticket through and it didn't register. The steward said: 'Just go through.' So I walked through and this burly steward grabbed me. He was telling me to get out and come back in through Y. Then two police officers came over and started pushing me with their shields. I know what they are trying to do, they are trying to provoke a response. I told them I was a former policeman. The two of them started talking and eventually decided to let me go."

A big screen in the stadium blamed the "late arrival of fans" for the delayed kick-off. On Monday, French authorities claimed counterfeit tickets on "an industrial scale" were responsible. Neither Cowley nor Rotheram saw any of the supposed "30,000-40,000" fans with counterfeit tickets but both recognised the attempt by authorities to shift the blame on to fans, as was the case with Hillsborough.

"Every time I read the narrative that they are putting out there it just hits me between the eyes with Hillsborough all over again," says Cowley. "The only thing I take any solace in is the fact that what happened this time was viewed by the world's press and we've got social media and cameras, so they can't get away with what they are trying to spin. But every time I read this narrative it is like someone is picking at a scab. The French authorities are trying the same thing. It's revisiting it all again."

Rotheram, speaking on the phone he was lent by a member of Liverpool's staff on Saturday, says: "We need to collect a large body of evidence, video recordings and witness testimony."

He had called for an independent investigation before Uefa announced on Monday night that it had commissioned one. "When somebody is seriously injured or killed in the future, then we can point back to a time like this when everybody should have stuck together to ensure that people are safe at a sporting event," he says. "Hopefully if we have an independent analysis they won't be able to scapegoat Liverpool fans or abdicate responsibility."

[Barrister]

I'm a sucker for the emotional side of football, but Scotland-Ukraine was very good.

Slava Ukraini!

I read a story about how ordinarily Scotland is like everyone's feel-good underdog favourite in soccer, but not in that game...

[Sheilbh]

Slava Ukraini!

I read a story about how ordinarily Scotland is like everyone's feel-good underdog favourite in soccer, but not in that game...

Even former Scotland players like Graeme Souness were saying they wanted Ukraine to win

[Admiral Yi]

He was in pen three on 15 April 1989, where many of the 97 Liverpool fans were unlawfully killed at the FA Cup semi-final.

Can someone translate this for me?

[Sheilbh]

Can someone translate this for me?

Following campaigns by Liverpool fans against police lies, the original findings of the coroner's inquest were quashed and a second inquest was ordered. The jury returned a finding of unlawful killing in respect of all victims.

Six senior police officers were then prosecuted for crimes such as gross negligence manslaughter, misconduct in public office and perverting the course of justice. A number of charges were kicked out because there was no reasonable prospect of success - largely for issues with the evidence from 25 years ago and the deaths of key witnesses. The remaining defendants were all acquitted.

Which means that there's a verdict that those 97 fans were unlawfully killed but no-one's been found guilty or responsible. And, from the various reports into what happened, the most culpable are either dead or have been acquitted.

[Admiral Yi]

Thank you kind sir.

[Liep]

Cornelius' second goal was spectacular, so was the final result.

[Josquius]

So do the French police tend to heavily recruit violent right wing dick heads looking for a fight or was there orders from above to be a cock in this?

[Sheilbh]

So do the French police tend to heavily recruit violent right wing dick heads looking for a fight or was there orders from above to be a cock in this?

There's now been a formal apology to all fans from UEFA for what happened at the stadium - and the French press is still pushing. Both Real Madrid and Liverpool have now issued statements wanting answers (never pays to not be too cynical but UEFA apologised the day after a lot of corporate hospitality and sponsors went to the press about the issues they had in bottlenecks, crushes, pepper spray, muggings etc). Dan Austin is also doing very good work - English journalist who was there who speaks French and is working with French media on this.

My impression is French police dealing with crowds move very quickly to teargas and baton charges. Listening to the Guardian Football Weekly with Jonathan Wilson (who was there) and Philippe Auclair I get the impression there's some wider stuff going on in French football - like the training ground invasion at OM or the scenes at St Etienne.

But also possibly with French policing (the Interior Minister, Darmanin, was part of Macron's pitch to the far-right - he was the one who told Le Pen she was too "soft on Islam") and possibly how they view crowds who are being policed.

[Duque de Bragança]

Given the police did not really engage the foreign-origin hoodlums (some cops did it on an individual basis against orders) for which Seine Saint-Denis is infamous for, I found the far-right motive not very credible.
As for Darmanin, that soft Marine line was just a PR stunt, no one believed except those who believed Pécresse had gone to the right. The three of them, namely one on Languish. 

The rest is more accurate, there has been trouble in French football lately, with police prefects using any excuse to forbid official away supporters travels.
Also the Yellow Vest "policing" man is still prefect so even the not so good policing during the Euro 2016 was better than what we have now, and problems were rife at the beginning.

Incidentally, no incidents reported during the France-Denmark game yesterday in Saint-Denis. Well, les Bleus deservedly lost 1-2 and Kyky was injured, so yes a disaster.
There won't be CL or even Europa League finals in Saint-Denis for a while that's for sure. Maybe in Paris, Parc des Princes, or Lyon (Décines) but even Marseille will now scare off UEFA, despite the Vélodrome (Marseille) being in a decent area but troublesome city, specially if hooligans from abroad join the party (see EURO 2016 again).