Football (Soccer) Thread

[Josephus]

Watched the game yesterday at a bar with some friends. Talked to my mother after and found out Eustáquio is apparently a family friend. Family is from the village my mom's from and my cousin is friends with his mom.

I always knew all Portuguese are related. 

[Barrister]

Yes Canada played very well. They got unlucky. But it won't matter in the end. I'll be in the stand at BMO on Sunday where they only need a point against plucky Jamaica. I'll be there when history is made. 

Bare in mind the manager is a Sunderland man
If there's a way to screw it up at the last minute he will take a shot at it.

So hey you English football fans, let's talk about John Herdman, Canada's coach and men's national director.

Jos is both correct, and very wrong, to call him a "Sunderland man".  He did start out as a coach for Sunderland's youth academy until he left in 2001 (when he was 26 years old).  He then went to New Zealand, where he became joined the women's national team head coach in 2003, and became head coach in 2006.  Herdman then took the same position in Canada and had some success.

Finally he took over Canada's men's national team in 2018, where he's seen the team shoot up the international rankings and of course now seen Canada qualify for the World Cup for the first time since 1986 (and worth noting they were aided in 1986 by Mexico being an automatic qualifier).

So here's my question though: there's been some speculation that after 20 years away from home, and with some international success under his belt, that Herdman might be lured away from Canada to a job in England.

How likely is that?  Herdman's coaching resume with all those year's in women's soccer, plus coaching soccer nobody Canada hardly seems like a traditional resume for a head coaching job in England.  And you know me, viewing everything through the lens of hockey - in the world of hockey coaching experience outside of north america is not at all valued.

Any guesses whether Herdman is going to get job offers from England after the world cup?  Or is it going to depend on how Canada does (realistically I think the expectations are pretty modest - Canada just wants to be competitive and at least get a tie or win in the group stage)?


A couple links on the guy for further reading:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/60144426
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Herdman

[Josquius]

Honestly I don't know anything about him. He's born in Consett and given its where he started his career he is most likely a Sunderland man I'd say. Could be a Newcastle fan though.... *spit*


It all depends on his personality and his family I'd say.
Certainly if Canada are halfway successful (through to second round?) in the world cup then at the least I can see a championship or league team taking a punt and offering him a job.
Then it depends on whether that's what he wants (probably I'd guess based on little other than it being a good career move) and his family.

[Sheilbh]

So here's my question though: there's been some speculation that after 20 years away from home, and with some international success under his belt, that Herdman might be lured away from Canada to a job in England.

How likely is that?  Herdman's coaching resume with all those year's in women's soccer, plus coaching soccer nobody Canada hardly seems like a traditional resume for a head coaching job in England.  And you know me, viewing everything through the lens of hockey - in the world of hockey coaching experience outside of north america is not at all valued.

Any guesses whether Herdman is going to get job offers from England after the world cup?  Or is it going to depend on how Canada does (realistically I think the expectations are pretty modest - Canada just wants to be competitive and at least get a tie or win in the group stage)?

It strikes me as the sort of appointment an ambitious and innovative and interesting club lower in the pyramid might make. But not the Premier League and English football club owners/administrators are not known for innovation so he might be better looking in Europe (maybe Germany or Austria?).

The points you make are fair about why he might not be considered. I think the biggest issue, though, would be that he's only worked in inernational football.

Increasingly I think international football is basically a different sport from club football. Obviously the coaches have less time with their squad and they are coming from different clubs where they play different systems. The key of a good international coach is working out a system that fits those players - and that they can learn/use in a short space of time. International football for me is like what club football was when I was young, while club football especially with coaches like Klopp and Guardiola but even times like Brentford or Leeds at their best is just something else. It's so much more technically complicated and impressive than when I was a kid.

I think for that reason there would be reluctance. This happens in England tooo - everyone loves Gareth Southgate. He's been a very successful England coach (as well as our most intelligent, articulate and nuanced political commentator see his comments on Qatar: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/mar/25/england-players-shocked-at-qatar-human-rights-abuses-says-henderson) and is very popular. I think there is still a question over him of whether he would be a good club manager. So even with him, I don't know what level of job he'd get in club football - my suspicion is probably mid/lower-Premier League, maybe.

Clubs, in England, are very conservative and I think they'd want some proof of him working in that environment rather than international football. As I say maybe a lower league club that was a bit forward thinking and innovative (but I'm not sure of who that might be off the top of my head).

On the other hand if Canada win the World Cup then someone would take a risk

[Barrister]

Honestly I don't know anything about him. He's born in Consett and given its where he started his career he is most likely a Sunderland man I'd say. Could be a Newcastle fan though.... *spit*


It all depends on his personality and his family I'd say.
Certainly if Canada are halfway successful (through to second round?) in the world cup then at the least I can see a championship or league team taking a punt and offering him a job.
Then it depends on whether that's what he wants (probably I'd guess based on little other than it being a good career move) and his family.

Canada making it to the second round would be a huge success for Canada - not just "halfway successful".  In 1986 (Canada's only other WC appearance) they lost all 3 games and failed to score a goal in any of them.  Honestly that's my best case scenario for the team.

But that's what I though - the idea of hiring Herdman would be "taking a punt" - making a risky move that has a chance to blow up, but could be a huge success.

As you may or may not know, my first full-time legal job was with the same law firm that Malthus works for (though in a different city).  I left that job in 2002.  The idea that that job would define me, to call me say a McCarthy's man (name deliberately changed), would feel kind of insulting given the 20 year history I have since then.

[Barrister]

It strikes me as the sort of appointment an ambitious and innovative and interesting club lower in the pyramid might make. But not the Premier League and English football club owners/administrators are not known for innovation so he might be better looking in Europe (maybe Germany or Austria?).

The points you make are fair about why he might not be considered. I think the biggest issue, though, would be that he's only worked in inernational football.

Increasingly I think international football is basically a different sport from club football. Obviously the coaches have less time with their squad and they are coming from different clubs where they play different systems. The key of a good international coach is working out a system that fits those players - and that they can learn/use in a short space of time. International football for me is like what club football was when I was young, while club football especially with coaches like Klopp and Guardiola but even times like Brentford or Leeds at their best is just something else. It's so much more technically complicated and impressive than when I was a kid.

I think for that reason there would be reluctance. This happens in England tooo - everyone loves Gareth Southgate. He's been a very successful England coach (as well as our most intelligent, articulate and nuanced political commentator see his comments on Qatar: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/mar/25/england-players-shocked-at-qatar-human-rights-abuses-says-henderson) and is very popular. I think there is still a question over him of whether he would be a good club manager. So even with him, I don't know what level of job he'd get in club football - my suspicion is probably mid/lower-Premier League, maybe.

Clubs, in England, are very conservative and I think they'd want some proof of him working in that environment rather than international football. As I say maybe a lower league club that was a bit forward thinking and innovative (but I'm not sure of who that might be off the top of my head).

On the other hand if Canada win the World Cup then someone would take a risk

Interesting perspective.  I didn't know there would be such a split between international and club soccer.  Again coming from hockey, they don't have a full-time national team coach - they just find a coach who is between NHL jobs for each specific tournament.

[crazy canuck]

The team that made it in 86 was terrible - iirc the betting line was that they would not score a goal and so it was no surprise they were in fact scoreless. 

This team is very different.  Unless they end up in a group of death, it will be a mild disappointment if they don't move on to the second round. 

If they go further into the tournament then he becomes much better known and his story of turning both the Women's and now Men's programs into international contenders starts looking a lot more appealing. 

[Jacob]

I'd think Herdman's current resume could get him a shot in the top flights (but not top teams) in 2nd or 3rd tier European leagues, with 2nd flights in the top leagues... and maybe, stretch case, a struggling team in a top flight - in all cases as a sort of "roll the dice, let's try something wild".

Now if Canada does exceptionally well in the World Cup, then that could change.

[Jacob]

As you may or may not know, my first full-time legal job was with the same law firm that Malthus works for (though in a different city).  I left that job in 2002.  The idea that that job would define me, to call me say a McCarthy's man (name deliberately changed), would feel kind of insulting given the 20 year history I have since then.

I think Euro football club loyalties mean more than employment

It's more like, if someone was a Winnipeg Jets assistant coach back before relocation it'd be fair to call them a "Jet's Man" after they moved into coaching international hockey teams, I reckon.

[Sheilbh]

Interesting perspective.  I didn't know there would be such a split between international and club soccer.  Again coming from hockey, they don't have a full-time national team coach - they just find a coach who is between NHL jobs for each specific tournament.

I might be overstating a bit but I think it's definitely a factor - flipside is I think anyone who is successful in international football is probably a very good man manager because that's such a huge part of the job. Getting all of those players from different (often rival) clubs and melding them into an effective team is a real skill. It's the thing at every tournament that teams with the biggest stars don't necessarily win, rather international teams that play like a team do (see: the Netherlands, always).

Weirdly I think the jobs international coaches would be best suited to are actually the super-clubs: PSG, Real, Man United. Clubs where there's lots of politics, lots of players with big egos and entourages who won't necessarily follow a detailed tactical plan (e.g. try to get Messi or Neymar to track back ). I think the challenges at those clubs - unless the manager has total backing of the club like Klopp or Guardiola - is really similar to being an international coach. Getting everyone to pull in the same direction and devising a tactical scheme that will fit the players you have.

[Josephus]

I've no dobut Herdman will leave after the World Cup. And he'll have a host of opportunities that likely pay better than Canada.

[Barrister]

I've no dobut Herdman will leave after the World Cup. And he'll have a host of opportunities that likely pay better than Canada.

I dunno - wouldn't surprise me if he left, wouldn't surprise me if he stayed.

He could probably negotiate himself a big raise to stay in Canada if he wanted to stay.  Job would be safe and secure, maybe he doesn't want to uproot his kids who by now have been in Canada for a decade.

But he's also of an age where maybe he wants to tackle a new challenge.

[Josquius]

As you may or may not know, my first full-time legal job was with the same law firm that Malthus works for (though in a different city).  I left that job in 2002.  The idea that that job would define me, to call me say a McCarthy's man (name deliberately changed), would feel kind of insulting given the 20 year history I have since then.

I think Euro football club loyalties mean more than employment

It's more like, if someone was a Winnipeg Jets assistant coach back before relocation it'd be fair to call them a "Jet's Man" after they moved into coaching international hockey teams, I reckon.

After having also been born and raised in winnipeg with a family that has supported the team for generations.

[Grey Fox]

Managers of teams like Canada also have to convince dual country eligible players to choose Canada. JH is good at it.

[Josephus]

Managers of teams like Canada also have to convince dual country eligible players to choose Canada. JH is good at it.

Yes and that's what JH did that others before him didn't.

But it won't be so hard now, or at least easier than it was >four years ago. For one, they are now a proven qualifying contender. They WILL also be in the next world cup, as co-hosts. So players born in Portugal with a Canadian grand mother might be more willing to play for Canada than before.