Football (Soccer) Thread

[The Larch]

Are there rules for when the stakeholder teams get relegated?

I assume that the next longest tenured club at that moment would get the spot. Currently that'd be Crystal Palace, if I'm not mistaken.

[Sheilbh]

Are you guys getting any reporting on this "Big Picture Project" proposal for English football? I just saw a couple of reports son it and it seems to contain some rather worrying elements for the future of English football. As it currently stands it basically implies a heavy concentration of power on the top Premier League clubs and a reorganization of competitions in exchange for a bailout for lower league teams, which are currently in dire straits. It was created by the owners of Man United and Liverpool, with Chelsea later joining them and afterwards including also Arsenal, Man City and Tottenham.

It's also opposed by the Premier League and the government. I don't particularly like this but there are some interesting ideas in it.

I think it's clear we need change and I think there are good ideas here. Re-uniting Premier League and the EFL and providing funding to the EFL, an independent Women's League (not owned by the Premier League or the FA). I quite like the idea of play-offs for relegation/promotion. I don't think anyone would mourn the Community Shield and my approach to the League Cup wouldn't be to abolilsh it but that it becomes a competition for clubs not playing in Europe and a route into Europe. I also don't mind reducing the number of clubs in the Premier League to 18 (but this does mean 2 clubs leave the League pyramid which is not something that should be done lightly).

I also think getting rid of parachute payments is a good idea. And I see people saying that clubs wouldn't be able to "gamble" on getting to the Premier League - I think that's a good thing. I think a lot of issues have been caused by clubs gambling on promotion, failing and imploding (and separately - the EFL has serious financial issues but they also have an issue of some very, very bad owners and this won't fix that).

The negative bits I think are clubs selling international rights to their games independently - I think this is their priority because Liverpool and City for example could make a lot more money by doing this. It would start with x number of games but end up with all games I think and I don't like it. I also really don't like the change to the voting rights which isn't quite what you've said. It isn't that 6 of the 9 would have a veto right, it's that to make changes you'd need two thirds - so 6 of the 9 is enough to agree anything (with Everton, West Ham and Southampton as patsies).

I don't think the FA will need to use the Golden Share because it's really weird in that the 6 clubs working on this don't need to convince the EFL (who they're kind of bribing) to go along with this. They need to convince another 9 Premier League teams to go along with it, but they're the group worst affected by the proposals.

Honestly part of me just wishes all the super-clubs would fuck off and form their European super-league (if only for the tantrums when some of Chelsea/Arsenal/Spurs/United are not included because it can't have 6 English clubs). Then we can have an English league with teams like Leeds and Villa (and Everton ) competing plus allow UEFA to run European competitions without pandering to the super-clubs, which I think would show a bit more respect to the legitimate, good football clubs outside of Spain, England, Italy, Germany and France. So have a Champions League that is just the Champions and then a Europa League for another three clubs (which could be based on league position or cup winners).

I think the real issue is that we all looked at Ajax in the Champions League a couple of years ago or Leicester winning the league, or Super Deportivo to go back further and enjoyed that. The people who own big football clubs smiled along but basically think of ways to stop it ever happening again. And (this is yank-bashing) I think American owners are particularly big on this stuff which combined with the rest of the way football works would just mean a closed shop and no draft so the worst of both worlds.

Edit: Also the opportunism is pretty distasteful and I think may have consequences because the Premier League were doing a pretty good case (I thought) of why they can't bail-out the rest of football. I think the government could now fairly say, well you were just about to give them £250million (again agreed by the 6 people but it's all of the Premier League's money) so the pleadings of poverty ring pretty hollow now

[The Larch]

Another possible negative change that I saw mentioned would be that the big teams could block any new really big sugardaddy owner (say, another big national oil fund or whatever) from buying a club that could rival the current top teams, further cementing their economic advantage.

I agree with most of what you say about possible new reforms, but it is quite the naked power grab by the top teams. I don't see the rest of the PL teams going along with it, so I doubth it'll be implemented as it's currently being presented, but it will surely come back in a different shape.

Also, as you say the possibility of teams selling the broadcasting rights for their games independently would be quite a bad move for the league. The economic success of the PL is based on the collective sale of those rights, and allowing some games to be taken away from that package would surely detract from the overall price that they'd be sold for in the future. It's what we did over here, each team sold their rights separately, which was great for Real Madrid and Barcelona, but overall the league was hurt because of that as smaller teams just couldn't get anywhere close to those earnings. The PL model was seen as the epytome of fairness and something to be imitated.

[Sheilbh]

Also, as you say the possibility of teams selling the broadcasting rights for their games independently would be quite a bad move for the league. The economic success of the PL is based on the collective sale of those rights, and allowing some games to be taken away from that package would surely detract from the overall price that they'd be sold for in the future. It's what we did over here, each team sold their rights separately, which was great for Real Madrid and Barcelona, but overall the league was hurt because of that as smaller teams just couldn't get anywhere close to those earnings. The PL model was seen as the epytome of fairness and something to be imitated.

Agreed - and here's the thing, I think that decision and greed by Madrid and Barca is now costing them. Because of the way money is distributed in the PL I think while the league itself may not necessarily be competitive almost all of the teams are pretty good and, on their day, can beat any other club including Liverpool or City. Now Liverpool and City would get more money if they negotiated their own TV deals and would pull away even more. I think part of the success of the PL as a brand is that they can pitch games as exciting and surprising in a way that is more challenging if there's a huge gulf between the top and everyone else (however big or small that top is).

So if the games become less exciting because there's less competitiveness fewer people will watch, they'll watch the Bundesliga or Serie A and the English clubs will start to be at an economic disadvantage. I mean I think the competition was why everyone in the world was into Italian football in the 90s, I think there was something similar in Spain in the 2000s with Valencia, Villareal, Madrid, Barca, Super Deportivo () which kept going because of how competitive Madrid-Barca-Atletico became (plus the NBA of football with Messi, Ronaldo etc).

There'll always be a base layer of fans globally who watch x league. But I think competition drives the undecided who just like football and if you start baking in a competitive advantage, in the long-run you'll only hurt yourself (however tempting it might be). And I think that is something that perhaps is the issue with American owners in particular because there's no leveling mechanism in football like a salary cap or the draft.

It's also what I think about a European Super-League. For the first few years I'm sure everyone will enjoy it but, and I say this as an Everton fan, eventually a club will end up being Everton. There'll be a top x number of clubs within the Super-League and then there'll be one that is basically often the best of the rest and we start the cycle again.

[Sheilbh]

Well this has been shut down "unanimously" but it looks like some changes are going to be discussed:

[The Larch]

Sure, unanimously... 

[Liep]

So Denmark beat England at Wembley. Didn't see the match but apparently Eriksen scored on a debatable penalty and besides that Kjær was the best player. Sounds proper boring.

[Josephus]

So Denmark beat England at Wembley. Didn't see the match but apparently Eriksen scored on a debatable penalty and besides that Kjær was the best player. Sounds proper boring.

and England had a man sent off too

[Duque de Bragança]

Portugal 3 Sweden 0

No Ronaldo due to Covid-19, but Diogo Jota was there to score two goals and deliver an assist to an almost eliminated Sweden.

Croatia 1 France 2

™La chatte à Dédé™ is still... working. Croatia actually played better in the second half but Mbappé woke up at last.

"Group final" on November 14 between Portugal and France

Italy 1 Netherlands 1

Both teams are in a not so great shape.

[Sheilbh]

Sure, unanimously... 

This is getting messy

Someone has revealed that the head of the FA in the early meetings proposed a Premier League 2 and Premier League B-Teams (which are both very controversial/pro-big 6 ideas). I could be wrong but it wouldn't surprise me if "someone" is Rick Parry the head of the EFL who was very keen on Project Big Picture.

We not quite at Spanish levels of fights between the leagues and the federation - but we're getting there

Edit: Also just listening to my usual Everton podcast and I will never not love how much Everton fans/scousers don't care about England

[Valmy]

Intense localism is what sports is all about.

[FunkMonk]

Pickford destroying Virg was quite a play. 

[FunkMonk]

Calvert-Lewin jumping 10 feet in the air to head in a goal was also quite the play  

[Sheilbh]

Calvert-Lewin jumping 10 feet in the air to head in a goal was also quite the play  

I love him so much

What a mad game. But it makes a pleasant change from the usual derby of recent years - either Liverpool winning or a very gritty* (*boring) draw.

[Admiral Yi]

Do Spanish announcers all do that "gooooooooooooooal" thing?