[SPOILERS] A Dance With Dragons

[Siege]

Did the Targaryen had more than one wife at the same time?
Is there any way Rhaegar could have legally married Lyanna to make Jon a trueborn heir?

And ok, we got Jon and Aegon as the two sons of Rhaegar, but why Dany?
Dany is Rhaegar's sister.
Is there any way Dany could be Rhaegar's daughter?

I really don't understand where GRRM is going with Rhaegar's prophecy.
I don't see how losing the throne helps the Targaryens save Westeros.

[grumbler]

Did the Targaryen had more than one wife at the same time?

Yes, but not in recent times.

Is there any way Rhaegar could have legally married Lyanna to make Jon a trueborn heir?

The problem wasn't Rhaedar's ability to marry Lyanna per se; it was that Lyanna was already promised to Robert, and didn't have her father's permission to marry Rhaegar.  She couldn't marry Rhaegar, even if he could marry her.

Is there any way Dany could be Rhaegar's daughter?

I don't believe so.  She was definitely Rhaella's daughter, born quitea while after Rhaegar's death and some lesser time after after Elia Martell's death.  Plus, Rhaella died in childbirth, so there could be no question of Rhaella faking a pregnancy to cover up the fact that Daenarys wasn't hers.

[LaCroix]

I enjoyed the book much more than the last one, but not nearly as much as the first three.  Martin's use of resurrections and false corpses has become so routine that I don't care if characters I have come to identify with die, because death is no big deal, it seems.

Far too much use of cliffhangers and phony to end chapters.  That stuff only works when used sparingly.

Also, as I noted earlier, still way too many characters and plot lines.  We could have not had Theon at all, and the Melisandre chapter added exactly zero, other than to ruin an interesting suspense about the extent to which she was what she claimed to be.  All of the Arya and Asha stuff could easily be skipped, as could Davos Seaforth and Quentyn Martell.  The book would be much better if tighter.  Martin could publish all of these snippets as short stories or on the web.

Someone asked:  yes, Brienne reappears (as far as we can tell, though it is in just one scene), but we don't find out how she came back to life.

agreed on the resurrections. the first time we saw it with robin hood was kinda cool, since then =  i mean, what is even the point of undead cat? martin thinking wouldn't it just be awesome if she came back to life and started offing freys?

i really thought the theon chapters were some of the best written in the book. there needed to be a pov in that part of the world, imo. asha, well, she served her purpose

honestly? if a lot of those pov characters were cut from the book, i would have found it terribly difficult to get through. they were the saving grace to the endless sea of pointless and just (imo) plainly dull daenerys and tyrion chapters. jon's weren't too bad, i thought, but still could have easily been condensed. the davos chapter on that small island was pretty worthless, though. cannot agree with quentyn--pov of meereen post drogo-flight + continuation of one of the more interesting plots of affc

i don't know what martin is doing with arya, though i've not read her last chapter so maybe it's explained there. i think he just likes the character + she's a fan favorite, so he threw in a bone to that crowd

i've found the last quarter or so of the book to be much more interesting and engaging than everything before it, excluding certain povs (bran, theon). 3/4 of the book < affc as a whole, last part of adwd > affc is how i would rate it. the very worst were the "daenerys acts stupid" chapters (most of the book, really, she wasn't always this incompetent.. was she?) and the five hundred pages devoted to tyrion on a boat or with a caravan

@brienne- she didn't die in affc. she had phony-death syndrome; she said a word

[grumbler]

I don't find the meanering and pointless POV chapters poorly-written; as you say, Martin made Theon one of the more interesting pointless characters in the book, and wrote his chapters well.

My problem is that they are meandering and pointless, and would be much better if published outside the book.  With all the pointless POVs included, by the time you get back to anything resembling the plot, you have lost some of the interest.  It is kinda like reading The Lord of the Rings by stopping after each chapter to read a chapter of AA Soldier of the Great War.  Sure, the chapters of ASotGW would be well-written and the characters interesting, but the distraction wouldn't improve your enjoyment of The Lord of the Rings.

I didn't find the Quentyn Martell chapters well-written or interesting, or germane to the story.  If he gets resurrected (or turns out not to have died at all) as well, I am going to throw the next book across the room!    I find it interesting that you consider the Tyrion and Danenarys chapters pointless, but not the Asha, Theon, Quentyn, and Davos ones.  Perhaps we don't agree on what the plot of the book is, because IMO the whole plot of the book is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Ice and Fire, and Daenarys is clearly the key to that prophecy.  Tyrion, it seems to me, is clearly going to be the guy who knows enough about dragons to explain to Dani how to control hers.

[Scipio]

Remember, in Martin's work, only Ned Stark stays dead, until the inevitable retcon, when Gwen Stacy/Bucky Barnes/Jason Todd return from the dead.

[grumbler]

Remember, in Martin's work, only Ned Stark stays dead, until the inevitable retcon, when Gwen Stacy/Bucky Barnes/Jason Todd return from the dead.

We don't know that Ned is dead.  Someone who looked a lot like him was killed, but that doesn't say much in Martin's world, where dead people are mistakenly identified all the time.

I'd say that whether Ned is dead or not will really depend on whether the show continues to be successful with out Sean Bean.  If they need Bean back, either the "Ned" we saw/read about being executed is a fake, or else Ned gets resurrected.

[LaCroix]

I don't find the meanering and pointless POV chapters poorly-written; as you say, Martin made Theon one of the more interesting pointless characters in the book, and wrote his chapters well.

My problem is that they are meandering and pointless, and would be much better if published outside the book.  With all the pointless POVs included, by the time you get back to anything resembling the plot, you have lost some of the interest.  It is kinda like reading The Lord of the Rings by stopping after each chapter to read a chapter of AA Soldier of the Great War.  Sure, the chapters of ASotGW would be well-written and the characters interesting, but the distraction wouldn't improve your enjoyment of The Lord of the Rings.

I didn't find the Quentyn Martell chapters well-written or interesting, or germane to the story.  If he gets resurrected (or turns out not to have died at all) as well, I am going to throw the next book across the room!    I find it interesting that you consider the Tyrion and Danenarys chapters pointless, but not the Asha, Theon, Quentyn, and Davos ones.  Perhaps we don't agree on what the plot of the book is, because IMO the whole plot of the book is the fulfillment of the prophecy of Ice and Fire, and Daenarys is clearly the key to that prophecy.  Tyrion, it seems to me, is clearly going to be the guy who knows enough about dragons to explain to Dani how to control hers.

i suppose i never had that problem, the sudden switch from main storyline to "pointless pov", back to main storyline, etc. to me, interesting characters add depth to the world. many of the more useless-to-fire&ice povs serve simply to show the events occurring in specific areas of the world. this has always been a theme in martin's series, such as sansa and catelyn earlier on in the first books. sure, it's been occurring with more frequency since affc, and the importance of certain such side-povs might not be at the level of catelyn in got/acok/asos, but they still have mostly acted with purpose. asha, for example, showed us stannis' problems, introduced the question surrounding the future of the ironborn islands and theon's possible role there, and reunited with her brother--furthering her own personal arch. it may be that by the end of the series they do have some impact on the main plot, or they could remain as event/setting-povs. time will tell.

in your lord of the rings example, the non-frodo chapters after fellowship--in relation to the main storyline--were pointless (from what i remember) aside from showing the events at helm's deep, minas tirith, and really only affected the storyline by explaining that a diversion north of mordor allowed the hobbits to make the final trek

still haven't finished quentyn's chapters, so if he suffers from martinism and nothing happens with his plot to steal a dragon, then i'm not sure. i'll have to get back to you on him once i finish it up. i do like his character and appreciated his presence in the book, however

now, forgive me if i came across as saying all the tyrion and daenerys chapters were pointless. i do not think they were, just about half of them

[grumbler]

i suppose i never had that problem, the sudden switch from main storyline to "pointless pov", back to main storyline, etc. to me, interesting characters add depth to the world. many of the more useless-to-fire&ice povs serve simply to show the events occurring in specific areas of the world. this has always been a theme in martin's series, such as sansa and catelyn earlier on in the first books. sure, it's been occurring with more frequency since affc, and the importance of certain such side-povs might not be at the level of catelyn in got/acok/asos, but they still have mostly acted with purpose. asha, for example, showed us stannis' problems, introduced the question surrounding the future of the ironborn islands and theon's possible role there, and reunited with her brother--furthering her own personal arch. it may be that by the end of the series they do have some impact on the main plot, or they could remain as event/setting-povs. time will tell.

I oprefer my storytellers to tell stories, not just indulge thier ability to put words on paper.  We don't need to know any of the details of Stannis's problems in the North - we didn;t have any details on his problems for months on end of story-time, and the show went on.  It is his lack of discipline that prevents Martin from being a truly great writer, IMO.  He has all the skills.

in your lord of the rings example, the non-frodo chapters after fellowship--in relation to the main storyline--were pointless (from what i remember) aside from showing the events at helm's deep, minas tirith, and really only affected the storyline by explaining that a diversion north of mordor allowed the hobbits to make the final trek

I don't think you understood the books at all.  The Lord of the Rings wasn't about a ring, it was about the characters affected by the ring.  The book didn't even end when the ring was destroyed, which it would have if it was about the ring.  Thus, chapters about people who didn;t have the ring were as important as chapters about people with the ring.  Your comment would be apt if Tolkien had Martinized his books by including, after every chapter with Aragorn, a chapter showing Elrond being helpless to do anything to help and remembering the old War of the Ring, after every chapter with Gandalf in it, a chapter showing Rhadagast the Brown wandering through Mirkwood killing spiders, and after every chapter with frodo and Sam having a chapter of Tom Bombadil singing songs to Goldberry and having the adventures he had in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

now, forgive me if i came across as saying all the tyrion and daenerys chapters were pointless. i do not think they were, just about half of them

That's martin's indiscipline showing.  Yes, we get lots of chapters where nothing happens, because that's just the way he writes.  They are real purty and descriptive, but could be shortened and combined to make the narrative cleaner and more compelling.  Martin leaves out the battles, but describes ruined cities in some detail.

[LaCroix]

I oprefer my storytellers to tell stories, not just indulge thier ability to put words on paper.  We don't need to know any of the details of Stannis's problems in the North - we didn;t have any details on his problems for months on end of story-time, and the show went on.  It is his lack of discipline that prevents Martin from being a truly great writer, IMO.  He has all the skills.

I don't think you understood the books at all.  The Lord of the Rings wasn't about a ring, it was about the characters affected by the ring.  The book didn't even end when the ring was destroyed, which it would have if it was about the ring.  Thus, chapters about people who didn;t have the ring were as important as chapters about people with the ring.

That's martin's indiscipline showing.  Yes, we get lots of chapters where nothing happens, because that's just the way he writes.  They are real purty and descriptive, but could be shortened and combined to make the narrative cleaner and more compelling.  Martin leaves out the battles, but describes ruined cities in some detail.

first, finished off quentyn. poor guy, but i see what you mean. he really has no purpose other than concluding a stray plot point developed in affc. and showing that there's a bit more needed than an obscure drop of targ blood when dealing with dragons. still enjoyed the chapters, though

martin expands on the story through his many characters, showing events from different povs to help enlighten the reader about this or that. it's not perfect by any means, and i could agree about his lack of discipline, but i don't think it's honest to characterize the "pointless povs" as being nothing more than words on paper. many, myself included, would not find the series nearly as enjoyable if there weren't povs around to show what was happening in other areas of the realm and instead stuck to what the main players were doing--leaving the reader as ignorant as the character. like i said, he's been doing this since game of thrones. it may not be the best writing around, but i at least find it entertaining

on stannis- we've nearly always had a character follow him around since he became relevant, and with davos off finding allies that pov had to be replaced

you're right, i probably didn't understand lotr. i read it at age 12 and haven't since 

[Habbaku]

Finished it just now.  I have to agree with grumbler; there were far too many pointless POVs nestled in the book (Victarion, Asha, Quentyn--disagree that Theon's were pointless).  I'm still digesting the ending and will unfortunately concede that Valmy was right about the epilogue character.  I liked Kevan.   

Melisandre will resurrect Jon, though.  The pair of them have too much time invested in their stories to just throw it aside without a real, non-Julius Caesar ending.

[Habbaku]

I'm still puzzled as to why Victarion's chapters are even in the book at all.  Any build-up to what he'll do in the next book could easily have been handled via flashbacks.

[Habbaku]

Also, odds on Stannis actually being dead?  The letter from Ramsay seems like a trick for some sort and I'm still trying to figure out how he'd know all that he wrote in it.  I'm smelling something fishy there.

[LaCroix]

I'm still puzzled as to why Victarion's chapters are even in the book at all.  Any build-up to what he'll do in the next book could easily have been handled via flashbacks.

because victarion is just plain awesome, and his chapters are the funniest in the book?

as a tie in to your last question- how do you think theon/jeyne escaped, btw? the banker said: "beneath its walls we found mors umber with a troop of raw green boys, waiting for the king's coming. he gave us this." i assumed this meant there was infighting at winterfell, unless the banker's troupe came upon them just as they dragged theon and jeyne from the snow after their jump

[Habbaku]

No, I don't think there was any in-fighting at Winterfell (well, aside from the obvious bits, of course).  Mors Umber was the force that had sided with Stannis and were the ones responsible for blowing the horns that drew the Bolton's forces out of the walls.  I think it's most likely that Theon and Jeyne's fall was cushioned by snow and they simply escaped to the "good guy's" lines in the confusion--something made all the easier by the splitting of the Bolton-Frey and Manderly forces.

[LaCroix]

No, I don't think there was any in-fighting at Winterfell (well, aside from the obvious bits, of course).  Mors Umber was the force that had sided with Stannis and were the ones responsible for blowing the horns that drew the Bolton's forces out of the walls.  I think it's most likely that Theon and Jeyne's fall was cushioned by snow and they simply escaped to the "good guy's" lines in the confusion--something made all the easier by the splitting of the Bolton-Frey and Manderly forces.

ahh, yes, i had completely forgotten about the other umber group. that would explain that part. thank you for explaining the confusion. i'm unsure then, but given ramsay's nature i would not be surprised if he had lied about the death of stannis. the reference to the magical sword can be explained through the torture of mance and/or the spear-wives